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Game Project
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| Ftoomsh | Date: Friday, 20/September/2013, 11:24 PM | Message # 21 |
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| I would be happy to take the shorter, more homogenous route. The period 1805 - 1815 would be my choice in that case. The first cut could feature just two to four national armies, France and probably Austria, Russia and Prussia. Initially, just national units, and not the units of allies and satellite nations, would be modelled. No model can ever include all elements of reality but only selected elements of reality. But those selected elements must be modelled as accurately as possible whilst keeping the game playable.
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| Nowy | Date: Tuesday, 24/September/2013, 6:05 PM | Message # 22 |
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Marquis
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| If I may suggest you could include more nation/factions with different power strength.
There were not equally balanced powers during Napoleonic Wars. There were many limiting conditions which determined powers strategies.
Therefore Austrian, British, Prussian, Russian, Spanish and smaller aristocratic states organized many coalitions against Napoleonic France and their small "vassal" allies.
There were few characteristic powers groups or tiers which employed different strategies.
Here you are some examples.
I. Great land powers in West and East Europe were respectively:
1. France - population 30-44 millions, army 350k or up to 950k including reserves and allies units.
2. Russia - population 38-40 millions, army 350k-450k including Cossacks, other irregulars and numerous garrisons.
II. Great maritime and mercantile power was
3. Great Britain - population 16,3 millions, army 161k-220k including some militias.
British also had big marines forces, the biggest and strongest navy, numerous merchant and transport ships.
They employed many workers in industry, mines, trade and transport.
III. Major powers in Central Europe get into troubles. These were:
4. Austria - population 21,2 millions in 1805, reduced to 18 millions in 1809, army 330k or 430k including Landwehr, insurrections, garrisons and volunteers units. After defeat 1809 Austrian dissbanded several regiments and reduced army strenght.
5. Prussia - population 9,7 millions in 1806 reduced to 4,9 millions after Treaties of Tilsit, army 180k in 1806, reduced to 42k after Tilsit.
After reforms Prussian military forces backed with allies were increased to 270k, including Landwehr, reserve, garrison, foreign and volunteer units.
IV. Major powers in South Europe suffered with numerous troublesm, they were in long term decline. These were:
6. Spain - population 11 millions, army c.a. 120k to 180k including provincial or irregular units. Few Spanish regiments serviced for French until 1814.
7. Ottoman Empire - population 30-35 millions including vassal and dependent territories, army 80k-160k including provincial, vassal and dependent territories units.
V. Emergent or dependent factions supporting great powers.
8. German states
- French allies in Rhine Confederation e.g. Baden, Bavaria, Berg, Saxony, Westphalia, Wurttemberg etc, population all together 12-16 millions, various armies all together had 60k to 120k. Many changed sides and became French enemies in late 1813.
- French enemies e.g. Brunswick, Hannover, Hessen etc, population c.a. 2 millions. These states were occupied and their armies were dissolved. However they formed King's German Legion and Brunswick Corps, all together 15k in British service. Their small armies were recreated after 1813.
9. Italian states
- annexed by France e.g. Piedmont, Liguria, Parma, Tuscany, Rome etc, population c.a. 5 millions, their soldiers serviced in French army c.a. 20-30k
- French allies e.g. Napoleonic Italy, Naples, population 5-10 millions, army all together 50k-100k,
- French enemies e.g. Two Sicilies, Sardinia, population initially 7 millions or c.a. 2 millions after 1806, army initially c.a. 70k, later c.a. 10k
10. Polish population 4,3 millions in new created Duchy of Warsaw or 8 millions in former Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth area, army 30k in 1807 and c.a. 100k including reserves and newly formed units in 1809 and 1812.
11. Egypt real population and army was unknown, but these population could included few millions and army several thousands.
VI. Minor states allied with greater powers, they tried secure their territories. There were:
French allies:
12. Batavia-Holland - population c.a. 2 millions, army 20k-27k, transferred to French army in 1810. Dutch changed sides in late 1813.
13. Helvetia-Swiss - population 1,5 million, army 16k, few Swiss regiments were in French and other few in Spanish service
14. Denmark-Norway, population 2,2 millions, army 30k-60k including militias
British allies
15. Sweden-Finland - population 3,3 millions reduced to c.a. 2,3 millions when Russia annexed Finland in 1809, army 30k-60k
16. Portugal - population 3 millions, army 20k-50k, few regiments created Portuguese Legion in French service.
New game project could somehow include such big differences between factions.
There no needs to include all factions as fully playable, but some small allies would be fine in the game.
Message edited by Nowy - Tuesday, 24/September/2013, 6:14 PM |
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| Marshal | Date: Tuesday, 24/September/2013, 8:36 PM | Message # 23 |
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| Let me ask this, will all these ideas be meant for singleplayer or multiplayer? If multiplayer then this project might be easier than the initial impression. If singleplayer than nothing different here. If both then that's the same as singleplayer anyways so still no difference.
As for nations and factions, would it be easier to start with the major powers first and then once it's realized that this project is worth it, then continue with more of everything in all aspects of this project? Say, start with France, Britain, Austria and Russia. Once we know that this mod is then being enjoyed be a good size community and there is the demand for it, then enlarge the scope of the project to include all that Floomsh wishes and sees as necessary.
Just my two cents. I could go on as you probably know but time is a luxury right now.
Me
1st Prince de Wagram, 1st Duc de Valangin, 1st Sovereign Prince de Neuchatel, Marshal of France, Marshal Louis Alexandre Berthier
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| Nowy | Date: Wednesday, 25/September/2013, 11:10 AM | Message # 24 |
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| Proper nation/faction balance in multi player or single player games is important.
Problem is that during Napoleonic Wars were not any equally balanced powers.
There was only one great power which dominated land warfare in West and Central Europe and other one great power which dominated at sea.
Next one great power only could exploit their own vast territory, indispensalbe resources, big army and severe cliumate in far East Europe.
Other major powers or smaller factions had not enough power, they alone could not won the war against any great power. They only could fought in coalitions or must support Imperial France. Then question with faction/nations balance in the game still is open.
Different power strength and complex conditions were characteristic for that period.
Therefore one power alone could not won the war against another one power. Allies were necessary for all powers.
France was dominant land power in West and Central Europe. French can assembled modern grand army. They used good weapons, advanced tactics and organization. Additionally they had numerous small allies in Germany, Italy, Poland, Holland, Swiss etc.
Any major power alone could not won land war against France in West or Central Europe. Therefore Britain, Austria, Prussia, Russia and other aristocratic states organized so many coalitions against Napoleonic France.
Russia owned vast territory, reach resources and can assembled big army supported with numerous Cossacks or irregular units. Severe climate and harsh living conditions made Russia hard to conquer. However Russia alone could not led successful operations in West and Central Europe. Far theater of war, strong enemies, long communications and supply lines hardened such operations. Therefore here Russia needed allies too.
Great Britain dominated in naval warfare. Any major power alone could not won sea war against British Royal Navy. However Britain had relativly small standing army dispersed in many far, far away places. Therefore British alone could not won land war against any major power. Great Britain needed coalitions.
Austria can assembled big army, but their multinational army was composed with various nations which had mixed attitude to Austria Empire. Some nations here dreamed about their freedom and were not so interested in support Austrian aristocratic rulers. Therefore they alone can not won land or sea wars against other major powers. Austria needed coalitions.
All these meant that France, Britain, Austria or Russia were not equally balanced.
These major factions needed allies and these conditions should include new game project.
Message edited by Nowy - Wednesday, 25/September/2013, 11:14 AM |
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| Ftoomsh | Date: Monday, 07/October/2013, 3:07 AM | Message # 25 |
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Count
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| It seems to me Nowy that you are arguing for grand strategy realism and geostrategic realism. An RTS game of the scale I am contemplating (up to 16,000 troops or 1 corps per player) is still not nearly big enough to encompass grand strategy and geostrategy. The argument for geostrategic realism simply does apply to this project. If the game goes to corps size for each player, then the need is for realism at the corps level. All the significant powers could muster one or more corps or corps sized armies. Yes, I know we could into an argument about when various powers implemented actual corps structures but we can assume corps or corps sized armies for the project.
Thus the task for the game mod I envisage is to make mobilisation, support, logisitics, manouvres, strategy and tactics realistic at the corps scale or small army scale.
I could write at length on this but I will stop short for now. I have now entered a time when I will be busy with other projects. As I said earlier, I was raising these ideas for general discussion at this point and other projects would engage me for a time. I will not be attempting this project (with or without assistance) until at least March 2014 as I mentioned in an earlier post.
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| Nowy | Date: Wednesday, 09/October/2013, 1:43 PM | Message # 26 |
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| Yes, I was arguing for grand and geostrategic realism which heavily influenced on smaller army corps scale too.
Take in mind that:
1. Great power as like France easily can mobilise 350,000 soldiers. They could formed more than ten army corps and many reserves.
They also could used some small alies forces. French firstly implemented modern corps organization, tactics and standardised armament.
Then each French army corps could employed more agressive strategies, because they were more advanced in many military aspects and they could be quickly supported or reinforced.
2. Great Britain as maritime industrial and trade dominant power relied on strong navy. They invested large sums in economy and shipbuilding while their army was not prefered. British must kept many colonial garrisons, therefore they had dispersed land forces between many far away locations.
They could created only limited army corps. In Europe it were one, two or three British field corps which were used very cautious in limited operations.
Therefore British usually sought for allies support and organized several coalitions. Even in small army corps scale they used some German, Portuguese, Dutch or other units.
3. Russia as populus and resources reach empire could created several army corps, but they employed different strategies in West and East Europe. On home soil they exploited their specific land and weather conditions, and even scorched earth tactic, while in far West or Central Europe they operated more cautious and here they needed allies. Russia also was engaged on few far away fronts. Russian additionally used numerous Cossacks and other irregular units as supporting forces which operated independent or were attached to their army coprs. They did not bother about their casualties too much, because they can easily mobiised next their poor serfs recruits.
4. Austria also could organized several army corps, but these were composed with several different nations which made some troubles.
Their army was less homogenous and Austrian aristocratic commanders and noblese officers were afraid of their subordinates loyalty. Then these soldiers were often kept in close order and slower packed formations. They also needed their specific recruit areas where lived different nationalities.
These things influenced on Austrian army corps cautious strategies too.
Then grand and geostrategic factors influenced on smaller army corps scale strategies. These were different even for significant powers. Their army corps often had different strength, structures, organization and strategies. Therefore it were very rare cases where alone French army coprs could fought against alone British army corps. French army corps were more aggressive while Austrian, British or Russian usually were more cautious. However the latter can accepted even big and bloody casualties.
These could mean that even army corps size scale implemented in the game should include geostrategic factors.
I proposed eariler include few factions tiers which could represent main differences between powers and their possible strategies even in RTS game.
I also suggested that RTS game should include some simplifications. The game can not use scale 1:1, especially in men numbers. These open next questions about proper army strenght, organization, order of battle and basic units representations.
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| Daddio | Date: Tuesday, 05/November/2013, 2:46 AM | Message # 27 |
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| Not sure how this information would transfer into a game format. But I agree with you 100% with your study. Nicely put.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
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| Nowy | Date: Tuesday, 05/November/2013, 4:20 PM | Message # 28 |
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| I think that it is possible implement such complex features into the game.
Players should test main characteristic things and warfare conditions which were historically definited during Napoleonic Wars.
These mean that there were not equally balanced powers and each power needed some allies.
Grand strategy and geostrategic realism heavily influenced even on smaller army corps scales.
Game format of course needs some simplifications, but RTS game has few difficulty levels named sometimes in SP as normal, hard or very hard.
These include some different gamplay conditions. Why not include five different faction tiers instead these three difficulty levels.
Different factions tiers could include different gameplay conditions and they could allow play quite different strategies.
For instance.
1. Great land powers as like France and Russia in the game could fight for dominance in West, Central or East Europe.
They could assemble the greatest armies slightly different in their specific conditions. They could sign alliances with major or small powers.
Diplomatic Centre could allow create ally units. These two factions alone also could fight against other factions.
2. Great maritime and mercantile power as like Great Britain could exploit their geographic and economic conditions. British Royal Navy can defend home isles, can support British army in costal engagements, but can not win land war. British needed many allies and coalitions against other great powers.
British economy needed large investments and manpower, but these allow earn money needed for war expenditures and subsidies for British allies.
These mean that British Army could led only limited operations and could win only when it could be supported with other allies e.g. Portuguese, Spanish, Germans units.
3. Major powers in troubles as like Austria and Prussia could defend their possesions in Central Europe, but they needed strong allies. They alone can not won the war against any greater power. Russian and French forces dominated land warfare, then one of these great powers should help these major powers in troubles. Diplomatic Centre could allow use allies units in the game. Austria and Prussia could assembled medium scale armies supported with some Landwehr and volunteer units.
4. Major power in decline as like Spain and Ottomans only could defend their home territories. These factions are limited with some specific conditions.
Spanish could exploit resourses from their vast colonies, but only when British would be their allies. Spanish could rose in revolt against enemy which occupied their home soil, but these led to long and cruel guerilla war. Nevertheless they can win only with stronger allies help.
Ottomans can exploit their vast territory and facts that their strong enemies can not engaged all their forces against Turks.
France, Britain and Russia were engaged on other more important fronts at that period. Austria, Prussia and Spain had their own troubles. Other smaller factions had not enough power and they can not fought agaisnt Turks. Then Ottomans could survived, but only when enemy powers were engaged in other wars.
5. Emergent or dependent factions as like Germans, Italians, Polsih, Egyptian only could support greater powers which can secured these small dependent factions. Neverhteless these small factions were important as allies in specific areas. They could survived under greater power protection.
They can assembled small or medium scale armies which needed greater power help.
6. Small states as like Batavia-Holland, Denmark-Borway, Helvetia-Swiss, Sweden-Finland and Portugal could survived only as allies of greater powers.
These mean that they can assambled smallest armies and needed greater powers help.
These conditions could be implemented into the game and these six or five factions tiers can define gameplay conditions.
Then players could chose what strategy they would like to play in RTS game.
Message edited by Nowy - Tuesday, 05/November/2013, 4:42 PM |
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| Marshal | Date: Tuesday, 10/December/2013, 3:30 AM | Message # 29 |
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| Well, hello. I'm back. As if you cared right? lol
I have been thinking about this big project since I've been absent and now I see a problem, how in the world are we or anyone to make such a big mod on a 32 bit system even if one was to use virtual machine or something of the sort? It is not possible, not enough ram, other system resources. Here's the deal though, the game, AC/CII can be redone to 64 bit format and accept way more ram and todays latest graphics cards. Steam has done it, but who's gonna buy a whole new game when they have a cd copy already like me or anyone else here?
My suggestion is that we look into getting someone with the proper knowledge to change the game to 64 bit format and ensure its compatibility with Windows 7/8 for those who have been suckered into buying Windows 8/8.1/Blue. I have had to start the learning process all over again with C++, but by middle January I should have it down packed. If you guys allow me time and push me to do it, I may attempt to make the necessary changes to make the game playable in the latest OSs.
I have a question now that I wonna ask, does anyone have the AI source code to ACFB? I have been hoping to find it but it appears to almost be entirely lost. I've asked Lord Gexozoid, but it seems as if he doesn't want to give it to me. Maybe EbelAngel could smooth talk him into giving it up or something. All I know is that this project could use a singleplayer angle to it, it would give some fun to those who have weird schedules like me. Is it possible to create from scratch a whole new AI source code from the game files, or .DLL files? Just asking.
Me (Marshal Andre)
1st Prince de Wagram, 1st Duc de Valangin, 1st Sovereign Prince de Neuchatel, Marshal of France, Marshal Louis Alexandre Berthier
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| Ftoomsh | Date: Saturday, 18/January/2014, 3:14 AM | Message # 30 |
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| I care Dav! Been trying to track you down. I have been in Canada for some time. I still am but I will get home very soon. I hope to revive discussion on this topic very soon, within a week. - Ftoomsh.
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