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Forum » Cossacks II » Modding » Questions about squads formations
Questions about squads formations
NowyDate: Monday, 17/February/2014, 0:16 AM | Message # 1
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I would like to test some changes in squads formations in C2. Could you tell me how and where I can change some things.

1. Where and how I can change men amount in squads formations?

I would like to test squads which had slightly different men amount in formations e.g.
- basic infantry battalion = 108 men plus 3 staff
- basic cavalry regiment = 60 men plus 3 staff
- Russian Cossacks regiment = 50 men plus 3 staff
- sharpshooter and sapper company = 12 men
- villages defenders = 15 militiamen or policemen
- Egyptian Bedouin = 12 men

2. Is it possible implement two types of basic formations for infantry, cavalry and artillery?

Ideally it would be fine inculde various squads organization and men numbers for each nation.
However initially I would like to test only two basic types of squads e.g.
- infantry company = 12 men
- infantry battalion = 108 men
- cavalry squadron = 15 men
- cavalry regiment = 50 men
- Cossacks sotnia = 10 men
- Cossacks regiment = 50 men
- artillery section = 2 the same type artillery guns and 2 limbers
- artillery battery = 3 the same type cannons, 1 howitzer and 4 limbers

3. Where I can change villages defenders (militiamen) behaviours/actions?

I would like to see smaller militiamen squads = 15 men which can form 2 ranks line formation or 4 x 4 - 1 column formation.
These smaller militiamen squads should try defend villages without advance to close combats with much bigger enemy formations.
Militiamen squads shoud not engage in such suicidal actions, should not advance to close combats with bigger enemy formations.

These village defenders should find cover behind dwellings or trees and open fire on advansing enemy at bigger distance e.g. open fire between yellow and green muskets zones. If enemy will still attack, militiamen squad should surrender or retreat even to other ally village.

4. Were I can change squads shape, size and soldiers behaviours?

I would like to test slightly bigger in size infantry column and square formations.
I also would like to change soldiers positions in infantry and cavalry formations e.g.
When formation suffer some casualties in 1st or 2nd rank line or square then soldiers from 2nd and 3rd rank should orderly fill empty places in 1st rank.
This was regular order which allow kept squads proper front line or filled walls in hollow square.

5. What control places of deployment for officer, flagbearer and drummer in the squad?

I would like to improve standard, regular order in their positions.
They can not randomly change their positions in the squad e.g. randomly one man on the left flank, one man in the centre and one on the right flank.

Flag bearer normally should stand centrally in 1st or 2nd rank in line or columne formations.
Officer during fire combats should stand few paces in the rear behind formation.
During maneouvers on battlefields officer can march forward in front of formation.
Drummer should usually stand close to officer. These were standard positions for officer, drummer and flag bearer in the squad formation.
These were their regular positions which allow better signalise orders, better encourage own soldiers and hold staff in relaitvely safety place.

6. How many officers, flag bearers, drumers or Gnerals and their Ajutants could be attached to squads fomations?

It would be fine include Generals Commanders and their Adjutants in the game. Could they be attached to squads formations?

Added (17/February/2014, 0:16 AM)
---------------------------------------------
Hmm, six questions and any answer.
I try ask again, how ppl can modding these things:

1. Change men amount in squads formations.
2. Implement two basic formations strenght.
3. Change villages militia squads strength and their actions.
4. Improve formations size, shape and soldiers actions.
5. Fix officers staff regular positions and actions.
6. Implement General Commanders and their Adjutants attached to basic formations.


Message edited by Nowy - Monday, 17/February/2014, 0:36 AM
 
ab_99Date: Monday, 17/February/2014, 11:51 PM | Message # 2
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Quote Nowy ()
1. Where and how I can change men amount in squads formations

POLAND.NDS
[OFFICERS]

UnitOf(PO) UnitBar(PO) UnitFlg(PO) 3
SQUARE 1 #SQUARE120 4 UnitFuz(PO) UnitGre(PO) UnitVol(PO) GuardPolGre(PO)
LINE 1 #LINE120COS 4 UnitFuz(PO) UnitGre(PO) UnitVol(PO) GuardPolGre(PO)
KARE 1 #KARE120COS 4 UnitFuz(PO) UnitGre(PO) UnitVol(PO) GuardPolGre(PO)

UnitKFlg(PO) NONE 3
SHER 1 #MOVR2COS45 8 UnitKGus(PO) UnitKEgr(PO) UnitKKra(PO) UnitKUln(PO) UnitKKir(PO) GuardPolKUln(PO) GuardPolKGus(PO) GuardPolKKra(PO)
PRUS 1 #PRUS45COS 8 UnitKGus(PO) UnitKEgr(PO) UnitKKra(PO) UnitKUln(PO) UnitKKir(PO) GuardPolKUln(PO) GuardPolKGus(PO) GuardPolKKra(PO)
TRI 1 #TRI1COS45 8 UnitKGus(PO) UnitKEgr(PO) UnitKKra(PO) UnitKUln(PO) UnitKKir(PO) GuardPolKUln(PO) GuardPolKGus(PO) GuardPolKKra(PO)

UnitEgr(PO) NONE 1
LINE 1 #LINE15COSEGR 1 UnitEgr(PO)
UnitSap(PO) NONE 1
LINE 1 #LINE15COSEGR 1 UnitSap(PO)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SQUARE 1 #SQUARE120 4 UnitFuz(PO) UnitGre(PO) UnitVol(PO) GuardPolGre(PO)

#SQUARE120  = ORDERS.LST ( #SQUARE120 SYM4 4 2 6 3 1 2 1600 )

etc...
Quote Nowy ()
2. Is it possible implement two types of basic formations for infantry, cavalry and artillery?

SQUARE  2 #SQUARE120 #SQUARE72   4 UnitFuz(PO) UnitGre(PO) UnitVol(PO) GuardPolGre(PO) 

(need to check in the game)

Quote Nowy ()
3. Where I can change villages defenders (militiamen) behaviours/actions?


\AI\BrigadeAI\Rules.ai
#PEHOTASTRELKI TempMent(FR) ...
...

Quote Nowy ()
4. Were I can change squads shape, size and soldiers behaviours?

see point 1, point 2

Quote Nowy ()
5. What control places of deployment for officer, flagbearer and drummer in the squad?


No

Quote Nowy ()
6. How many officers, flag bearers, drumers or Gnerals and their Ajutants could be attached to squads fomations?


zero


Message edited by ab_99 - Monday, 17/February/2014, 11:53 PM
 
NowyDate: Wednesday, 09/July/2014, 8:44 AM | Message # 3
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Thank you very much, you are very helpful again. However I need some explanations there.

Could you explain these things?

Quote "ab 99"
SQUARE  2 #SQUARE120 #SQUARE72   4 UnitFuz(PO) UnitGre(PO) UnitVol(PO) GuardPolGre(PO) need to check in the game)


I guess that SQUARE 2 mean two types of squads, one inlcude 120 men and next one has 72 men.
Problem is that I want to test two types of formations, one bigger = 108 men battalion and one smaller 12 men company.
For instance I need to see Grenadier 108 men battalion as well as Grenadier 12 men company.
I also want to see Hussar or another cavalry 60 men regiment as well as Hussar 15 men cavalry squadron.
In C1 it was possible create few the same type squads strenght, then I guess that in C2 it also could works.

Quote "ab 99"
3.Where I can change villages defenders (militiamen) behaviours/actions? AI\BrigadeAI\Rules.ai #PEHOTASTRELKI TempMent(FR) ...


I guess Brigade AI also include militiamen actions rules. Could you help me how properly write these rules in Brigade AI to achieve that needed changes in militiamen behaviours. Think that many people do not like these suicidal militiamen "defensive" actions in villages which they execute in the game now. Have you ever seen such stupid defence, when militiamen always have come at front of bigger enemy formation only to be shot down?

Militiamen action rules should include smarter actions.  For instance militiamen, smaller 15 men squad, can find cover behind buidings, rocks or trees, wait there on enemy, then shot at enemy from farther distance (green zone) and retreat to next position or even to next ally village. They could shot first volley, then also could load and fire individualy by files.

Quote
quote="ab 99"] 4. Were I can change squads shape, size and soldiers behaviours?  see point 1, point 2


Hmm,  in this case I want to change squads size area or shape, while your point 1 and 2 was according to squads men strength I suppose.
Formations shapes in C2 needs some fixes e.g. infantry battle colums nad squares could be slightly bigger in size area. In C1 game 72 men infantry squares and columns looked as bigger in size formation, but in C2 squares and columns look too small in size area.

I also think about cavalry tactical foramtions.
These had different shape at that period, than formations represented in vanilla game now.
During Napoleonic era cavalry formed 2 ranks line. This was thin formation, but it has wider front which much better exploited cavalry weapons.
This was standard cavalry battle formation which allowed suffer less casualties from artillery round shots and easier flanking or surrounduing enemy.
In C2 game we can see only 3 ranks line cavalry formations. In AC games exist 2 ranks lines formations and these looks somehow better.

Napoleonic cavalry battle columns often had not regular square shape, they were deeper, than wider in font or wider in front and thiner in deep.
That was because cavalry squadrons normally stay in 2 ranks lines, but in regimental column formation they stay one behind another one and horses were big animals which needed some free room or place. Then cavaly column in the game also needs some fixes.

Third cavalry formation, wedge in the game, could be changed into echelon formation which was oblique, steps shape formation.
Wedge was sometimes used by armoured Mediaval cavalry, but later it was not often met. Napoleonic cavalry formed mainly line, column or echelon formations.

There are some problems with 60 men squad formation, threfore I made some changes in 45 squad.
For instance I little bit changed TRI formation in orders.lst and now I got cavaly 45 men regiment with visible 3 squadrons in echelon formation

* * * * * * *

* * * * * * *

.........*....................C
.......................* * * * * * *

.......................* * * * * * *

................................*
..................................................* * * * * * *

..................................................* * * * * * *

..........................................................*
C  = Flag Bearer
* * * = Cavalrymen, they stay in 2 rank lines and one stay in front of squadron, he can represent squadron's commander
....... = gaps (empty places) needed for better manouvers, then regiment can easier avoid terrain obstacles or easier change formation into line or column
 
I've made similar case with cavalry line. Now 45 men cavalry squad is visualy split on 3 small 15 men squadrons with regular gaps between them. Soldiers stay in two ranks line and 3 cavalrymen stay in front of their squadrons, they can represent squadrons commanders.

Quote "ab 99"
No.

zero.


What a pitty that you can not find solution to questions 5 and 6.
I was hopeful that officer staff can take regular positions and Generals, and their Adjutants could be attached to formations.
I know that few Generals exist in the game, but only in editor mode. These would be fine see them in skirmish and BFE campaign modes too.
Even individualy deployed Generals could be fine units, however without these luminous crosses stupidly shining above them.

Nevertheless thanks again for your remarks. I will wait for you future explanations, because as I can see, you are well versed in C2 programming issues.

Added (08/July/2014, 9:57 PM)
---------------------------------------------
I made some tests and it looks that changing shape and men amount in formation is not easy case.

There are lot of symmetry errors, invalid orders and strange formation organization.

Nevertheless I can implemented some things e.g.
- new 108 men infantry squads, however they can not change square formation into line and holow square (kare) formations
- inew 12 men jegers and sappers squads, they have different shape, mean skirmishers chain line and sappers 2 ranks line
- infantry officer, drummer and flag bearer are more centrally positioned, however they still randomly change their positions
- improved cavalry 45 men squads, they looks like regiment formed with 15 men squadrons and echelon formation is doable
- tried include 40 men Don Cossacks squads with new shape formations, wider lava line, but this did not work, they formed only squar formation
- tried include new 36 men formation for Spanish Partizans, but they looks too small and strangely they fought only in square formation
- tried include two types of size of infantry and cavalry formations, but they did not work at all.

I made easy cheap trick with militia 30 men squad and formation. Experimented with different men amount, but this can not solve the issue.
Therefore I changed order for villages militia LINE60MENTCOS in that shape

...........*........................*
* * * * * * *..........* * * * * * *

* * * * * * *..........* * * * * * *

* * = militiamen with visible gaps between them, this makes squad less crowded
.... = big gap (empty place) this way we got two companies 15 men in 2 ranks and 2 men in third rank can represent commanders

However I can not change 120 men infantry column (SQUARE) and holow square (KARE) size area and make them little bit bigger and less crowded.

Have not an idea how implement arillery battery squads and Generals with their Adjutants.

Still think about AI modding. However I need some help in these matters.
It would be fine include some new units too. Especially Guard needs lot of changes.

Some vehicles also would be wellcome e.g. ammunition caissons, supply wagons or pontoon bridges carriages.
Interesting is how change buildings size and make them smaller in size e.g fortress is very hard to locate on maps.

However there are lot of problems, these tests showed that C2 game still has fine potential.

Added (09/July/2014, 8:44 AM)
---------------------------------------------

Few questions.

1. Can sombody expalain how properly change ord-groups.lst and orders.lst files to avoid symmetry SYM 2 or SYM 4 errors?
2. How change squads size area to make battle columns (SQUARE) and holow squares (KARE) little bit bigger and less crowded?
3. What controls changing squads formation's shape types and their icons normally locate near weapons icons in left down corner in the game?
4. How correctly implement two types infantry and cavalry formations in gameplay? It looks that it is not enough change [OFFICERS]nations.NDS orders.

 
It would be fine implement these info in C2 modding manual guide section too.


Message edited by Nowy - Wednesday, 16/July/2014, 9:13 AM
 
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