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Forum » Cossacks I » Modding » How do I move Mine upgrades 5, 6 and 7 for Turbans to 18th C
How do I move Mine upgrades 5, 6 and 7 for Turbans to 18th C
FtoomshDate: Thursday, 29/August/2013, 4:07 AM | Message # 1
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I have been through the files for both 18th C nations and turbans with a fine toothed comb and made all comparisons and changes necessary so far as I can see. Yet I cannot stop the mine upgrades 5 , 6 and 7 being available for Ukraine (who I tested) in the 17th C.

What have I missed? It's problems like this that drive me mad and cost me hours of wasted time. I am not sure if I am missing the obvious or if there is some obscure trick or if it is in the exe file and I cant do it.
 
EbelAngelDate: Thursday, 29/August/2013, 5:44 AM | Message # 2
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ok, shouldnt be too hard, but first off all, what are turbans?

I'm not too familiar with the mod, so you'll have to forgive me, but does ukraine have an 18th century in it?

Eitherway, it will be best if you can attach the ukraine nds file to your post, ill quicker see whats wrong or hasn't been added.


 
FtoomshDate: Thursday, 29/August/2013, 10:56 AM | Message # 3
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Quote (EbelAngel)
ok, shouldnt be too hard, but first off all, what are turbans?

Turbans are the nations Algeria, Turkey and Ukraine. They can all go to 18th C in OC Mod (Balanced). Although they get less benefit from going to 18th C than European nations they still do get some benefit.

However, one odd thing about the turban nations in OC Mod and maybe in BTW too is that they can do all mine upgrades in the 17th C. European nations can only do the first 4 mine upgrades in the 17th C.

Since I hardly think the turbans are going to be ahead of the Europeans in mining technology circa 17th and 18 th C, I want them to wait until 18th for the last three mine upgrades just like the Europeans do. This will not limit the turbans much as they are not heavy gold users anyway, for the most part. However, out of a sense of neatness and fitness I want to remove their last 3 mine upgrades to the 18th C.

Attached is my current Ukraine.NDS

Added (29/August/2013, 8:51 AM)
---------------------------------------------
It's OK, I solved the problem. As well as enabling mine upgrades 5, 6 and 7 under the MAINUA statement, I had to break the link between 4th and 5th upgrades in UPGRADELINKS.

Corrected code is;

shahta(UA)INSIDE 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE3
shahta(UA)INSIDE3 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE4
shahta(UA)INSIDE5 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE6
shahta(UA)INSIDE6 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE7

Incorrect code was as follows with offending line in bold ;

shahta(UA)INSIDE 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE3
shahta(UA)INSIDE3 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE4
shahta(UA)INSIDE4 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE5
shahta(UA)INSIDE5 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE6
shahta(UA)INSIDE6 1 shahta(UA)INSIDE7

The incorrect code line allowed these links above to over-ride or pre-empt the MAINUA statement of;

MAINUA 14 Getman(UA)ATTACK7 Getman(UA)SHIELD7 Pushka(UA)BUILD Pushka(UA)COST Mortira(UA)COST Mortira (UA)BUILD shahta(UA)INSIDE5 shahta(UA)INSIDE6 shahta(UA)INSIDE7 AKA12UA AKA13UA AKA14UA AKA15UA AKA22UA.

I didn't find the offending code line until I did a line by line comparison of Ukraine.NDS to France.NDS (as a standard Euro nation example) side by side using the Find command with text "shahta" and Find Next each time.

The attached file is still the old, wrong one that didn't work.

Added (29/August/2013, 10:56 AM)
---------------------------------------------
Still working on Algir.NDS and Turkish.NDS. Corrupted my Algir file trying to put stuff into a standard order.

Wow, these files are a mess and hard to work on. Every file has stuff declared in different orders and/or not delcared in the same way at all. If those programmers were working for me I would have been saying "Use the same template for every file. Keep the declarations in the same order. Make every declaration even if some are null or empty because they might be used in future. Use identations and comments to make clear and explain exactly what is being done in each file."

OK, all fixed. Some of my problems were self-inflicted when I lost some code lines and duplicated some other code lines. But I do contend that this would not have happened if I had not been trying to clean up messy .NDS files which did not follow the same code line order in a proper templated fashion. If they had been neat and ordered my job would have been ten times easier.
Attachments: UKRAINE.nds(31Kb)


Message edited by Ftoomsh - Thursday, 29/August/2013, 12:40 PM
 
EbelAngelDate: Thursday, 29/August/2013, 3:22 PM | Message # 4
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Oh ya, ofcourse, its easy to overlook a line like that.

Glad you figured it out.

PS. Not adding the MAINUA to the [SPECIAL_UPGRADE/UNIT] Flags? (Meaning if you choose the option 18th immediate in rnd map menu,, they will still be in 17th. Or if you choose 17th only they will still be able to go to 18th ).


 
FtoomshDate: Friday, 30/August/2013, 0:02 AM | Message # 5
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Quote (EbelAngel)
PS. Not adding the MAINUA to the [SPECIAL_UPGRADE/UNIT] Flags? (Meaning if you choose the option 18th immediate in rnd map menu,, they will still be in 17th. Or if you choose 17th only they will still be able to go to 18th ).

I had no idea about the meaning of those sections in the .NDS file. You see that just proves there are huge holes in my knowledge about modding these files and modding these games. That part of UKRAINE.NDS is simply in the state that DAVOUT modded it to or left it. Can you explain to me what the values mean? I notice Hungary has;

[SPECIAL_UPGRADE]
Bashnia(VG)PAUSE 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bashnia(VG)PAUSE3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bashnia(VG)PAUSE4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bashnia(VG)PAUSE5 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bashnia(VG)PAUSE6 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bashnia(VG)PAUSE7 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
AKA11VG 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)COST 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)COST3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)COST4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)COST5 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)COST6 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)COST7 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)BUILD 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)BUILD3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)BUILD4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)BUILD5 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)BUILD6 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)BUILD7 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
AKA25VG 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
MAINVG 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0

[SPECIAL_UNIT]
WALL_EV(VG) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bashnia(VG) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pushka(VG)  1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

What do all the values in line MAINVG 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 mean?

What you describe ("Meaning if you choose the option 18th immediate in rnd map menu, they will still be in 17th. Or if you choose 17th only they will still be
able to go to 18th ") amounts to a way render the other 17th/18th menu options inoperable and enforce the standard game of start in 17th, progress to 18th. This actually appeals to me. OC Mod Balanced is designed and intended to be played with the following conditions;

Open terrain, land only maps;
No ships or boats or very minimal ships or boats;
Zero Peace Time (mostly but it is flexible about peace times);
No balloon;
Expensive cannons;
No peasant captures;
No building of opposing nation's buildings or troops;
Always start in 17th and progress to 18th is possible.

That's because OC Mod Balanced recognises that changing those kind of starting conditions affects the balance of the game and the game balance is designed specifically for the above conditions. For example, full 18th C nations (i.e. not turbans) struggle against the turbans in the 17th and the main hope of full 18th C nations in this situation is to survive to 18th C, do a big 18th C build-up behind defensive walls and then finally go on the offensive. If the 18th C was not possible, their main hope of winning would be gone.

The Opportunity Window Concept.

Each nation in OC Mod Balanced has a somewhat different “opportunity window” for winning. At least, I attempt to do this. I call the profile of each nation's strength at each phase their “phase profile”.  Many of these phase profiles build on the way the nation was already in OC Mod and even in BTW. I have just attempted to refine it. For example, attacjed is a little XL file with a bar graph of the phase profiles for Ukraine and Hungary compared. Phase profiles show relative strenghts and thus the best opportunity windows for offensive action. The height of each bar represents an estimate of the strength of the nation in each of the five major phases of the game; early game, middle 17th C, transition, middle 18th C and late 18th C.

Ukraine struggles very early, rapidly evens up mid 17th,gets much stronger around transition time and then tails off. This graph possibly exaggerates the differences. The differences are definitely there but the weaker nation in any phase still has many ways to survive if it defends accurately and builds up in its weak phases. However, it is usually a bad mistake to attempt to go on the offensive in one of your own nation’s weak phases.
Attachments: 7344809.xlsx(10Kb)


Message edited by Ftoomsh - Friday, 30/August/2013, 0:12 AM
 
EbelAngelDate: Friday, 30/August/2013, 2:32 AM | Message # 6
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The 0 and 1's are flags that are being set for the options in the random map set up screen.
For Example
The Special unit flag on pushka tells the game that this unit is to be disabled when the option "no cannons towers and walls "is chosen. Ofcourse with that unit come upgrades aswell which are moved into the Special upgrades section.

I believe AKA25VG is the balloon - no balloon option.

And then MAINVG (or whichever MAINxx) in the third and 4th colum is for 18th immediate or never 18th option.

Since all other nations have this line in their NDS, i think its best to add it to ukraine aswell if you have added an 18th century.

Even so you play certain settings, those options are still in the menu's available and should be set up accordingly in case someone else does use those options.

The logical step with section to me is to add all cannons and upgrades to these sections , because even if you choose 'no art towers walls' one can still build multibarrels mortars and howitzers(lol)

I'm also fairly certain these flags can be used for other options, like say, no market or no diplo. I think i tried it once years ago and wrote about it on one of the modding pages on the main site. http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/index/additional_tests_tryouts/0-184

Not sure if that made sense of if you want to know more about it?

Quote (Ftoomsh)
You see that just proves there are huge holes in my knowledge about modding these files and modding these games


I really oughta give you one of my files which has all the available nds and md strings explained. Its just i wanted to clean up the file, but its like huge and its mixed in with Cossacks 2 stuff. It was supposed to go on the site but it never got there.


 
FtoomshDate: Friday, 30/August/2013, 5:42 AM | Message # 7
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You are absolutely right. I should set up standard requirements for all nations in sections like SPECIAL UPGRADE/UNIT so that menu selections work as expected. I will get on to that.

Your super file of all .nds and md strings would be greatly appreciated. I don't mind if it's mixed with C2 stuff. I will be able to figure out if an entry applies to C1, at least in most cases. Scrolling past C2 stuff is actually a learning experience. I stop and browse it sometimes and get an idea of C2 engine capabilities.

QUESTIONS!

1. In your link it shows a BGAUZ(TU) which of course is a Turkish log cabin. I notice this log cabin has at least 3 build stages before it is fully built. How did you do this? I use BGAUZ2 in my changes to OC Mod and BGAUZ2 has no build stages. For an 18th nation it goes from a cobble stone base to built in one go. For Ukraine it is invisible, grass base on grass, until it appears fully built. This looks very silly and unprofessional of course. Can you help me with advice on existing graphics that will give me build stages for log cabins?

2. I have created Ukraine militia which are made by the Ukraine town centres. You can make them only at the expense of making peasants. Early on in a game you would mostly want to make peasants but some militia could be handy. Late in a game you could spam militia to assist your conventional army. The whole thing might be a silly idea. Phil (OC_Clausewitz) is my touchstone on such matters. If he thinks it is a silly idea it will be removed. I am always ready to experiment and risk trying what might be a silly idea. Silly ideas are easy enough to remove again.

Currently my Ukraine militia are just Polish pikes. They can be put into formation with Ukraine flag officer but cannot be upgraded so remain like weak pikes. If I keep Ukraine militia would anyone have a militia style graphic of the time and place for C1 which they could give to me? Historical sources indicate Cossacks created village militia. Whether they were an infantry type I do not know. What weapons they might have used is also unknown to me. A short pike or lance is probably unlikely. A motley collection of old swords and pistols seems more likely. Incidently I am not aware of any unit in Cossacks currently which sports sword and pistols. Such an addition might be fun but I am not up to any graphics as yet.


Message edited by Ftoomsh - Friday, 30/August/2013, 6:06 AM
 
EbelAngelDate: Friday, 30/August/2013, 5:31 PM | Message # 8
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Right, so

Sent you a link with the document in pm, I dont want the document to float around on the internet cause its a bit a mess.

I use notepad ++ for this. I think you should too, it will make more sense reading it. ( And you should use notepad++ anyway when your modding nds /md files etc. Its so much easier. ( http://notepad-plus-plus.org/ )

I deleted some useless stuff to you, but left most of the rest.

For you i think you can skip most off it, and go straight to line 1400 which starts with MD string and goes trough animations onto NDS strings and upgrades untill line 3900 ish.

As i'v said there's also a lot of C2 strings in it. If you are unsure if they are just ask me. I know which are which.

The document isnt userfriendly, its what i use as a reference, i only need a few words sometimes to remind me of 2 hours of trying something out, but in general it should give you an idea of what is possible.

Q1.
I'm pretty sure i took a shortcut there from what it looks like. I used the blockhouse-logcabin from American conquest just swapped the graphics into the CI logcabin MD. Hence the funny build point results.
That been said, its entirely possible to use the AC blockhouse in C1 ,it just takes a bit of changes to the MD file and a conversion of the graphic file. Nothing too hard. About 15 minutes work alltogether i'd say, or maybe half an hour if its the first time.

The CI logcabin does not have build stages. You can check this by using the gparch - gpview.exe and load the graphic file for the BGAUZ. You will see that it only has a destruction graphic and the full building.(I think, im going by memory now) You could only create a buildstage if you had the original 3D model. Its very well possible GSC has made a buildstage for this particular building but didnt use it because they had no intention for the building to be buildable.

Some graphic files have unused graphics, some graphics files are overused, there are even completely unused building(s) and unit animations in the ALLGSC.. I tend to check with the gpview to be sure.

About the underlying textures on buildings. Its both dependant on the nation and the MD. If the MD file has the string 3DBARS and its defined as a nation with textures under the buildings then it will show up. The 3D Bars string sets the where ( coordinates in pairs top left to bottom right of the building) and the nations.lst sets the texture. You will see that ukraine has no texture defined there ( TX xx xx ).
The numbers here refer to tiles3.bmp to determine which textures to use. Tiles3.bmp is numbered from bottom left to top right.

Q2. Imperia mod had some ukrainian pike militia swordmen dude, maybe look there if its worth porting the unit over. I have to say a lot of the imperia units i find below standard colour wise and anatomically, there's something wrong with them ( horses look like they have legs the size of a match or they'v been severely underfed)
Dont think there are units with both sword and pistols in the era mods. That been said i might know a unit that has them, but I'm not entirely sure if it would fit ukraine style units. I'd have to check.


 
FtoomshDate: Friday, 30/August/2013, 11:25 PM | Message # 9
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Quote (EbelAngel)
You could only create a buildstage if you had the original 3D model.

This puzzles me a little. Are the original 3D models not available for any of the C1 graphics? Do people not modify C1 graphics but only add totally new ones of their own?

And thanks for the big file. It will take me a while to learn to navigate my way round in that one. smile

Added (30/August/2013, 11:25 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (EbelAngel)
I have to say a lot of the imperia units i find below standard colour wise and anatomically, there's something wrong with them

I have to say I agree with this statement. I found this to be the case too. My opinion on Cossacks art quality in general is this. The original artwork in C1 is superb in my opinion. It takes a lot of skill to make small animations look just right and most units in original C1 look very good. Most of Baddog's additions look good too except perhaps the English heavy horse. You will note it looks a bit flat, like a cardboard cutout and its death animation certainly looks like a big cardboard cut-out of a horse and rider falling over. Correct shading is required to give roundness and fullness to figures to stop them looking like cardboard cut-outs. Dav's OC Mod artwork is also very good to excellent IMO with the exception of his stone crofter houses for Scotland. They are a bit under-developed graphically and their proportions don't feel correct. They are too long and narrow and not high enough. New Imperia units for the most part do not look particularly good. Their archers look like rubber-band men to me.


Message edited by Ftoomsh - Friday, 30/August/2013, 11:12 PM
 
EbelAngelDate: Friday, 30/August/2013, 11:57 PM | Message # 10
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Quote (Ftoomsh)
Are the original 3D models not available for any of the C1 graphics? Do people not modify C1 graphics but only add totally new ones of their own?


No only GSC has those. Its not entirely impossible to change graphics colour wise, but you surely wont create new animations without the original models.


 
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