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I Find Cossacks 2 Totally Unplayable.
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| Nowy | Date: Saturday, 24/August/2013, 1:31 PM | Message # 11 |
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| Quote ("Ftoomsh") Yes, more realistic tactics and morale issues do occur in C2. I do question the firing ranges though. They seem unrealisitically close even for muskets. I also, question the need to always micro the fire of every company every time. Any large game should allow both to occur. A formation left on stand ground should have standing orders, for example hold fire until enemy approaches within x meters, whatever x meters is. The player could also over-ride standing orders to take personal control of a particular clash. Also troops walkign forward who then stop to fire would take longer to raise rifle and aim steady than the troops standing ground waiting yet this engine seems to give stand ground no advantage in this regard.
Hmm, I must disagree again.
Fire ranges in C2 are more relistic than C1.
Do you remember these overpowered dragoons in C1 which can fire at longer range than infantry muskets?
Do you remember Ukrainian Serdiuks which can outfire any enemy units?
Muskets at that periods really had short effective fire ranges, but dragoon's or cavalry muskets had shorter barrels and they did not fire at longer range. What is more all fire arms from that periods were not so effective at long range.
Therefore infantry and cavalry fire arms are much better designed in C2.
Artillery in both games did not fire at proper ranges, but this are map scalling and screens widith issues.
Nevertheless artillery fire in C2 looks more relistically. However there is one exception, light cannons should fire round shots at longer range. It could be similar to heavy cannons fire range. Canister shots in C2 also could fire at slightly longer range, but canister shots in C1 looks quite unrealistic.
Infantry and cavalry fire system in both games had glitches, but it occur in different ways.
C2 game of course require too much micro managment, but it allow organize fire in volleys by ranks or by entire squad and that is correct fire system.
Smart player can subsequently order several squads to fire, but novice in tha game could get in some troubles.
C1 allow use automatic fire, but in this game muskets can fire so fast as modern gun machines, which is quite crazy and foolish.
I prefer harder fire system in C2 than stupidly fast fire combats in C1.
Quote ("Ftoomsh") I also find peasants and soldiers enormously unwilling to obey orders. The peasants will stand around, take their hat off, wipe their brow (before any work at all) and then slouch off as slowly as can be to get to work. It seems to take several attempts to get cavalry to make a formation. When grenadiers are asked to grenade a building maybe two or three of them will throw bombs, the rest will stand there like dummies. Then they stop bombing the building before it collapses and you have to order them again to bomb the building. Cavalry will stand in the middle of broken, routed enemy troops and won't kill any unless you order them over and over again to get killing. Troops show no initiative at all. This is not realistic. In effective real armies junior officers and even troops are capable of showing their own initiative. Standing orders would cover this. Standing orders for cavalry would be to pursue routed enemy troops until coming up against a formation or until getting too exhausted. In this game the troops have zero initiative and the commander has to order almost every little action all over the battle field (except cold steeling loose enemy troops stupid enough to walk into the midst of an enemy formation. No real routed soldier would walk towards an enemy formation or try to walk through it.
In C1 soldiers attack and fire as cretins. They never get tired, never waver, fear or panic and usually fight to the last man.
Men in C2 got more realistic human behaviours, they can get tired, can waver, fear, panic and sometimes obey orders.
Singleman normally can not won combats here, but men can fight in organized squads quite well.
That is correct and experienced commander will can exploit humans abilities as well as their weaknesses.
Hand grenades in both games are foolish issue.
Does it really matter how stupidly they looks in C2 or C1, when in both games they were badly implemented.
Do you ever believed that hand grenades in reality can destroy strong, fixed fortifications or buildings?
Hand grenades were not so widely used at battlefields, because they were tricky to ignite, comberstome and even dangerous for throwers.
Hand grenades were shortly used only in specific occasions. They were not used against buildings.
Cavalry in C2 can effectively pursuit enemy remnants. You should properly command cavalry squads.
Do not forget that men and horses can get tire faster, when they combat or move faster. They need take a rest time to time and then needs new orders
They can not attack or puruse enemy all time and accross all map.
Neverhteless i can agree that squads in C2 could have some own initiative, especially in self defence.
Routed soldiers or any squads or artillery guns would not walk blindly towards enemy lines.
Quote ("Ftoomsh") Actually you puzzled me with one point, improvement of terrain. How can terrain be improved? Can some units trench, make fleches, level hill tops for fire position ets. I am not sure what your mean here.
Improvment of terrain mean that you can exploit terrain conditions to bulid fixed fortifications in proper locations which increase defensive positions e.g. build tower or blockhouse or fort nearly crossroads, bridges or even villages. Choke-points also can increase enemy casualties, when you bulid some fortifications in proper locations.
Trenches, fleches, level ground and other fieldworks are not available in both Cossacks games.
Ftoomsh if you still want to compare C1 and C2 games you can also read these threads
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/forum/15-384-1
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/forum/15-204-1
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| Ftoomsh | Date: Saturday, 24/August/2013, 2:19 PM | Message # 12 |
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| Look, I quite agree that C2 fire and tactical implementation are more realistic overall. You are right about the grenades issue too.
Sometimes increased realism can also increase the feeling of "groan, this game is going to take forever to complete". That is why I applaud more realism but would call for a bit of care in its implementation. The game can bog down if realism is taken too far.
Mind you, I am pretty sure the C2 AI cheats even on normal. I can beat normal setting now but what a grind it is! I have had 3/4 of the map and 3/4 of the mines and all my mines and mills upgraded and yet the AI with almost no resources was still making endless troops to match mine. It seemded to have no ammunition problems altho I think I had ALL the coal and iron mines at one point and I still had ammo problems.
Speaking of ammo problems, as France I made only cold steel cavalry and heavy cavlary that I forced to fight with cold steel the whole time. I did to this too conserve gunpowder for my infantry and I still constantly ran out as I said with all coal mines at full upgrade.
I could not get much over 2000 troops either.
And how many cannon can I make per cannon factory? And how do I make cannon limbers work?
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| EbelAngel | Date: Saturday, 24/August/2013, 3:41 PM | Message # 13 |
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| Quote (Ftoomsh) Mind you, I am pretty sure the C2 AI cheats even on normal.
It certainly does!
It pretty much gets free food, wood and stone whenever its low.
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| Daddio | Date: Saturday, 24/August/2013, 3:54 PM | Message # 14 |
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Marquis
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| Well it is easy to say that both games have issues.
I have the same issues with the maps as most people do. The in game maps are poorly done, especially in the BFE new ones. I have tried to address most of these with my new maps. My maps are for 2 player, and I tried to make room for buildings and to spread out the roads villages to make you use all of the map to give it a much larger feel.
I will work on some build orders, but after you learn the basics they come pretty easy.
Just keep in mind the no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.
If I find myself playing a rusher, my plan changes, as compared to playing a camper.
The game is divided up into 3 sections, start, middle and long game.
Being on stand ground will give you advantages over a frontal attack, especially if you time your shot too early. By you should never think of this game as a stagnate boring game. it is won by maneuver. He who sits and tries only to defend will loose every time.
I will possibly start a new thread, or just finish up on this one about a build order, I will have to give it some thought since it is just something I do without thinking.
But the main thing to learn is to get familiar with your units and their capability's. It is the same as in C1. each unit the both games have different capability and its up to you to use them to the best of their ability.
Let me think a little and I will add more later.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
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| Nowy | Date: Saturday, 24/August/2013, 5:01 PM | Message # 15 |
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Marquis
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| Quote ("Ftoomsh") Mind you, I am pretty sure the C2 AI cheats even on normal. I can beat normal setting now but what a grind it is! I have had 3/4 of the map and 3/4 of the mines and all my mines and mills upgraded and yet the AI with almost no resources was still making endless troops to match mine. It seemded to have no ammunition problems altho I think I had ALL the coal and iron mines at one point and I still had ammo problems.
AI in all games cheats. In C1 it cheats even much more than in C2.
In C2 it is not so hard beat AI. Even on very hard mode you can easy win this game.
Proper BO, units creations, tactics, strategy, good timing, and you can win even you play with one hand. You can even eat and drink in meantime.
Do not shoot too much at long range, better manouver and smartly use main principles of battle tactics.
Fire attacks should be well delivered. Artillery fire should weaken enemy squads, then infantry could shoot some savlos by ranks.
Sometimes you also could fire volley by entire squad, but be careful your squads should cooperte and secure themselves.
Medium range of fire would be fine. Support your infnatry with cavalry. Cavalry charges and mele are resonable solutions.
Built fort or bastion possible close to front line in the centre of map or close to main axis of your offensive.
When you hold 3/4 of the map and 3/4 mines you simply won the game. AI has no chance at that moment.
AI would not be so aggresive at that stage, it will stay in defence and wait for your actions. Your artillery could masacred their crowded squads.
Then your infantry and cavalry can push enemy and capture next villages. Soon AI can lost last village and that is the end. You are victorious.
I noticed that AI also lacked in ammunition many times. Then their squads can not shoot. They simply retreated when your squads came close.
This is very realistic.
Quote ("Ftoomsh") Speaking of ammo problems, as France I made only cold steel cavalry and heavy cavlary that I forced to fight with cold steel the whole time. I did to this too conserve gunpowder for my infantry and I still constantly ran out as I said with all coal mines at full upgrade.
Above I cast some remarks how you could led military operations and avoid ammo problems. Try fight this way.
Quote ("Ftoomsh") I could not get much over 2000 troops either.
And how many cannon can I make per cannon factory? And how do I make cannon limbers work?
Try that BO and these actions which I suggested in another threads. This allow easly increase your population limit even above 2,500 men.
Artillery depot can create only 2 light cannons, 1 heavy cannon and 1 howitzer and 4 limbers with horses.
If you need more artillery guns you could build next artillery depot.
Atrillery in C2 is very deadly weapon. It can kill many enemy soldiers, but it also can inflict waver, fear and panic in enemy squads.
These allow effectively destroy enemy forces.
I like artillery in this game however there would be fine create more guns, but then they should get much worse accuracy.
Limbering guns was spoiled in the game.
You should little bit move limbers from artillery depot and try deploy artillery guns behind limbers, then you can haul them using adecuate icon.
However limbered howitzer or better say their crew can strangely walk or roll. This is game bug I suppose.
Message edited by Nowy - Saturday, 24/August/2013, 5:12 PM |
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| Daddio | Date: Saturday, 24/August/2013, 10:36 PM | Message # 16 |
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Marquis
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| Wow looks like several people were typing at the same time as I was.
Well a lot of answers here, but I see little on economy or Build orders so I will comment on that one.
I will use Briton as my example since that is the one I most commonly play.
To start, place all peasants on Building TC,(close to stone and wood) place rally point on nearest wood and start peasants once complete.
Next build market. = (Buy 200 coal for wood - Then 800 coal for stone) I hot key the market as you will come back to it a lot throughout the game.
Place 5 peasants on stone.
The other 5 begin making barracks, (set next to a road) set rally point on nearest road.
Begin making Musketeers, and send peasants to nearest food if TC is not close, or gold village. and build a storehouse. I place these 5 peasants on wood until I have enough for the Academy.
Then back to the market and trade all coal for wood.
This will give you enough wood to build a palace. ( the palace is very important as once it is built it will begin automatic gold production, the same as a mine would produce)
You should have a formation built by now and you should send it to the nearest mill. (Food will be the first resource that you will run out of.) Do not fire to capture villages! you have used your coal to build quicker and Musketeers use lots of coal to shoot.
By now you will have your second formation of Musketeers built and you should send it to the most likely route of attack from a rusher. (AI is a rusher) This will block any attempts to take resources early and if successful it will cripple your economy. Find a blocking point and put your troops on stand ground.
I make 2 formations of Musketeers, then I start making riflemen. I do not put them in a formation, but instead send them to areas of the map as spy's. they have double the the sight area of other troops, and move very fast to their positions. Very important to see what the enemy is going after. Whether it is you or villages.
After I get 5 or 6 riflemen, I will switch to Sappers. these are important troops, they can build blockhouses at choke points the secure you from rushes and allow you to get your economy started.
Send the 5 peasants to build Blacksmith next.
Set your barracks from Riflemen to Highlander. (I think these are the best units in the game. they have high shot power moral, and range.) build these units with officer and drummer only. Talebearer is too expensive at this point.
Then build a small house.
Briton is a very heavy user of iron, but fortunately they have a factory that like a palace produces gold, a factory will produce iron. It is likely that you will need some stone to build the factory, I will trade gold for the stone I need and build.
By this time you should have enough to build your stable. Begin building Hussars.
I then build my second small house.
At this time I place my rally point from the TC on the nearest mill. This is the secret to a strong economy as food is the main commodity to trade for what you need.
All this time you should be gathering as many villages as you can get a hold of. go for mill, then gold, then iron, then coal. I would not bypass something if they were not in that order, but get as many as you can until you meet your opponent. Then dig in. Your units will be gaining moral with every village you take. and especially Musketeers are very strong when on stand ground.
Build third small house.
Next build the heavy Calvary stables as soon as you get enough gold.
I will move some 10 peasants to stone at this point as you will need some stone to build large houses, and upgrade mines. But keep most on food. You will need to trade for coal, and iron a lot.
Calvary is by far the most important troop in the game. So the race is to get the second stable up as soon as possible.
Game notes, General.
At this point you are into the middle game, normally the most action happens here. your economy is working well. trading food for what you need. I upgrade mills, and gold as quick as I can, but rarely upgrade iron or coal unless I just have way to many resources to care. Even with upgrades you will not have enough production to pay for the extra house you can get out of the cost of the upgrades.
Artillery is mostly used to break chock point fortifications and strong formations on stand ground. they move too slow to use in the highly mobile fast paced action in the game.
Never stop attacking, but attack wisely. loosing costs big-time as troops take a long time to regroup, and you could loose several villages after a foolish attack. Often you can force an opponent out of his strong defense with maneuver. once he breaks stand-ground stance hit him hard.
Moral is king in this game. Once a formation has gained a lot of experience they can best 2 even 3 opponents formations with ease. Once you get a lot of experience everything is enhanced. shoot power, stand ground power, cold steel power. It will be hard to hit them even in the red zone. I will pull troops back that have killed several troops and replenish them as often as I can.
Calvary is the most important troop in the game. They can attack flanks and cause terrible damage. they can "mop up " after battles and kill fleeing troops, gaining experience along the way. Massed Calvary linked with artillery can break strong points and move the game forward. He who protects and uses his Calvary the best will always win the game. Do not waste them on foolish attacks. One of the most common complaints from opponents is that I have cheated since I have so much Calvary But the fact is that they constantly attacked my squares, and stand ground formations and wasted there own.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
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| Ftoomsh | Date: Sunday, 25/August/2013, 0:34 AM | Message # 17 |
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| Daddio, I closed Skype before our last game, so that I wouldn't get pop-ups which wreck my minimap graphics in the game. However, I now find because of this stupid new security code those idiots at Skype have added and emailed to my wife's email, I am now locked out of Skype. I never created a code to send to my wife's email yet it automatically generated and sent a code anyway for some reason. Now of course I don't know what the code is since I didnt make it. The good wife sleeps in Sunday as she works Tues to Sat. I dare not wake her up to get the code if it will even work which I doubt. Why, when things are working well, do comapnies go and screw things up like that? Damn I hate Skype, it is so user unfriendly. The chat is the only good part about it.
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| aiidii | Date: Sunday, 25/August/2013, 10:30 AM | Message # 18 |
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| Quote (Nowy) However there is one exception, light cannons should fire round shots at longer range. It could be similar to heavy cannons fire range.
This can be done in UnitsMD game map:
1. Find a file named ArtPus4L.md and open it with Notepad. This file is for light cannon.
2. Find a line that says ATTACK_RADIUS 0 400 1000 (0 = weapon type, in this case round shot; 400 & 1000 = minimum and maximum ranges)
3. Change 1000 to say 1500. This is how I did it. It is a good range for a light cannon. For example a heavy cannon's maximum range is set as 2500.
P.S.:
ArtPus4.md = heavy cannon
ArtPus4L.md = light cannon
ArtPus4G.md = howitzer
ATTACK_RADIUS 0 = round shot
ATTACK_RADIUS 1 = case shot
Quote (Ftoomsh) And how many cannon can I make per cannon factory?
ArtPus4.md = heavy cannon
ArtPus4L.md = light cannon
ArtPus4G.md = howitzer
1. Open these .md files and find a line that says MAXINDEPO
2. The first number is the type of cannon and the second the number of cannons available for production per artillery depot.
3. Change only the second number!!! (For my own gaming purposes I have changed the number of available cannons per depot to 10 for all three types.)
Cheers
aiidii
I drink, therefore I am.
Message edited by aiidii - Sunday, 25/August/2013, 10:30 AM |
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| Ftoomsh | Date: Sunday, 25/August/2013, 1:24 PM | Message # 19 |
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| Quote (Daddio) I will use Briton as my example since that is the one I most commonly play.
Wow, that is a totally different concept of build order. I had no idea early trading was so important. I had no idea Palaces made gold.
Since it is clear to me now that in this game you keep bumping your head against the population ceiling, this means that quality of troops is important. Limited population capacity means every unit must be of the highest quality possible. In a game with more population capacity it is often possible to swarm numbers up first and worry about quality later.
Daddio's cavalry numbers and tactics gave me a lot of trouble but worst still was the grenades of the grenadiers. They appeared to be able to toss them from the border of the green and yellow zone. While I was still trying to decide whether to fire one line or not at all, the grenades fell amongst my troops. When I tried to replicate these grenade tactics my French trooops would march right up to the red zone and get cut down, break and run.
As the saying goes, it was a slaughter house.
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| Nowy | Date: Sunday, 25/August/2013, 4:31 PM | Message # 20 |
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Marquis
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| Aidii thanks for your advice, but arillery case in C2 is more complex.
You know these guns are very deadly and have big impact on morale.
Better fire range and more guns on battlefield would be very destructive.
Even with 3 cannons and 1 howithzer we could inflict horrendous havoc.
Can you tell me how we can improve, mean make much worse, artiller guns accuracy and killability?
Added (25/August/2013, 4:31 PM)
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Daddio could you check your tactics for Britain. It is similar to that tactic which I cast here
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/forum/27-397-1#3009
However there is one glitch.
If I remember well British factory can produce coal and you wrote that it can produce iron.
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