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Forum » Cossacks II » Gameplay » BFE - Guard Units (Ugh~ Guard units deserting all the time !)
BFE - Guard Units
domCossackDate: Friday, 10/October/2014, 10:40 PM | Message # 1
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sj@a&j#vlr5d%\sfd~~ I can't. for the life of me. get anymore of this. I've seen someone once ask here why some units you recruit in BFE-mode sometimes disappear. Nominally, elite [guard]ones... and cannons. But I can't find the thread it was in again, and I don't remember if there was any answer to it (even though I lurk a lot). Does anyone know how to fix that? I figured it has to do with some maps, e.g. in Poznan, no matter what, if you take arty with you, they won't show up, evaporate (at least until the result screen, when it says you lost them). I believe Marseille(?) or Munich doesn't allow for Guard units, they just *poof* (there goes an elite unit).

- "Stop deserting my ranks you fools, you are elite!"

If it really has to do with the map in question, then maybe... I don't know-- a little help, please.

Does anyone even visit here anymore? If so, I'd like to have some more questions answered but I will wait and see if I can get a reply on this simple(?) matter first.

Oh and hi to whoever reads this. My first post. happy
 
EbelAngelDate: Saturday, 11/October/2014, 10:39 PM | Message # 2
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I dont really know the answer to this question, i dont really play BFE, maybe someone else does?

If you have other questions, just ask, perhaps someone knows the answer.


 
domCossackDate: Monday, 13/October/2014, 1:22 AM | Message # 3
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Ah~ thanks, Ebel. When you say you don't play BFE, you mean the mode or the DLC entirely ? I haven't noticed this happening in NW. But then again, it took me a while to notice it in BFE too (and I mostly don't play NW).
I will have a look into it later and try and figure it out.

I forgot what else I wanted to ask. I'll shoot when I remember it again. ^^'
 
EbelAngelDate: Monday, 13/October/2014, 5:31 AM | Message # 4
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Ya, i only ever really played NW, i have BFE but its a bit too buggy and rushed version for my taste.

 
NowyDate: Monday, 13/October/2014, 9:22 AM | Message # 5
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Hmm, if I remember well both these games (NW and BFE) are buggy in similiar way.
They presented pure fantasy based on some units from Napoleonic era. BFE Campaign was very interesting idea, however in practice it is far, far away from reality in Napoleonic Wars. It include many useless events, stupid quests, poorly arranged operations, strange commanders, crazy nations balance, poor Europe map, strange tactical maps etc.
 
I agree that these games were too buggy and rushed, nevertheless BFE is still the best RTS game based on Napoleonic units.
BFE is better game, add 3 more nations, 10 more sectors and few campaigns, but still with poor reality level and similiar glitches.
 
It looks that vanishing guard units and artillery guns were coded as special events which tried avoid guard units an artillery over power in the game. I can live with these funny glitches, there are more stupid cases whcih could spoli the fun.
 
If you are interested in BFE Campaign corrections you could look here
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/index....62

There is basic information, but I do not guarantee that you will find there what you are looking for.
 
domCossackDate: Wednesday, 15/October/2014, 2:45 AM | Message # 6
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Oh I see. I never thought of them (NW and BFE) that differently, just that BFE adds a few more things. And it is said that it is a standalone (without the need of NW), I'd assume it is relatively the same as NW but just with a few more stuff added (a complementing DLC). I found out it is not the case and it should be phrased in another way.

@Nowy: I've been a lurking around through here for a very a long time and, as to what I've read, I don't think we are in agreement in everything wrong or right about the game (or games in general), you and I. But I realize we share a very similar chain of thought, though. For instance, I do believe we can agree that this has a great potential and initiative but it is very poorly executed and delivered.

I share a love/hate relationship with CII. I do remember when it came out and me and my friends were excited about it coming out. My friend who got me into Cossacks many, many years ago she was more of an AoE-pro (like me) rather than Cossacks, she offered me the game to try it and I spread it amongst our other friends (we created quite a good community between us). I remember when we saw CII we immediately disliked it. I liked some few features of it, but as like most Cossacks fans I was waiting for a CI sequel. So I barely gave it a chance (I was just a little kid). Then when I do try, as it is still Cossacks and one of my favorite games of all times, I see how strong it could have been, but how they blew it entirely. Obviously it is still better(ish) than CI, in a way, but I find it more disgusting the weak state of CII than CI. AND especially how many good and workable features from the first one were removed in the second, for no apparent reason.

I've been playing for quite some time now but only recently crossed my mind the idea to try and change a few things (or a bunch). Anyway, that is a matter for another thread. Maybe I'll look more to it when I have time and speak of it more openly. Right now, I can only say, the link you're giving me is dead. It gives me error 404. tongue And I don't think the missing Guard units and artillery were especially coded to act that way. It is a clear bug.
 
NowyDate: Thursday, 16/October/2014, 1:21 PM | Message # 7
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@ domCossack
Yes, I share opinnion that C2 game has a great potential, but in many cases it was poorly executed.
I also share love and hate relationship with Cossacks games. If you like discuss about C1 and C2 games comparison we could do this in another thread which existed there 
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/forum/15-384-1
 
According BFE corrections, I do not know why my pervious link was broken.
This was link to page on this site. Maybe you should log in there before you will try this link.
I can give it again
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/index....62
 
There is a lot information, but I am not sure that it could help in this case.
 
However I do not think that vanishing guard units and artillery guns were simply bugs.
These looks like predicted cases which could help avoid guards and artillery overpower in the game.
 
domCossackDate: Saturday, 18/October/2014, 3:37 PM | Message # 8
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Yes, I've read what's on that thread a long time ago. I don't know if I feel comfortable necro'ing a two years old topic, however. Even though considering the activity on these forums, with all due respect, I tend to demur in classifying it a necro or not. For not-so active forums tend to be a little more lenient in these scenarios.

This new link works, not the first one. Regardless of me being logged in (which I'm sure I always am, when commenting) or off.

The only thing holding me back from regarding this [vanishing squads] as an intentional codification for the game, Nowy, is that if it holds any truth to it, then it is the dumbest decision developers, from all areas, in the entire world have ever made and most stupidly executed. And would show clearly that CII was made by drunken people that kept forgetting to add the most basic of things into the game.

Why I say that?
Quite simple.

There is no notification that artillery or Guard units do not work in certain areas, they just evaporate. Say, you go for a tough battle: 20 Squad vs 20 Squad + 12 Garrison, 7 of your squads are artillery, 5 are Guard units. You enter the battle, not knowing, and suddenly your're 12 Squads less, having only 8 now! What the--?? How is that fair? There is no indication, no option to replace with normal units, nothing. It just cuts you off more than half of your army. You cannot repeat the battle and change the composition, you'll just have to lose. Your only choice is to never use them at all, because you'll never know when it strikes. And even if you go and try to mark all places where it happens, it's just better to level a normal unit to "Guard" status which will surely be more powerful than a freshly added already Guard one. Why have them in the game, then?

And how are arty and Guard units OP? Despite arty having an accuracy slightly too refined, but well it leans to compensate for its lack in numbers, how it was usually mannered. They are slow (there is no limber in BFE-mode, so freaking stupid), hard to position, dumb, canister round is bullshit, and only serves to get your (funnily small) crew killed, over and over again. And Guard units only have a faint advantage in HP and attack which barely does any difference. I'm not speaking when your units gain Guard-experience, for in that time they definitely become a force to be reckoned. They do nothing, they offer little, only that this faint advantage may come in handy, because faint or not it is still more, but not OP. Unless there are some hidden stats that makes Guard units OP which I'm not aware of, but I have yet to see them taking such a role.

I'll look into editing the map, anyway, to see if I figure this out. Thanks for the responses.

P.S. This came longer than I intended.
 
NowyDate: Saturday, 18/October/2014, 8:24 PM | Message # 9
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Quote "domCossack"
 I don't know if I feel comfortable necro'ing a two years old topic, however. Even though considering the activity on these forums, with all due respect, I tend to demur in classifying it a necro or not. For not-so active forums tend to be a little more lenient in these scenarios.


Do not bother necro'ing old thread when disscusion will continue old matters.

Quote
The only thing holding me back from regarding this [vanishing squads] as an intentional codification for the game, Nowy, is that if it holds any truth to it, then it is the dumbest decision developers, from all areas, in the entire world have ever made and most stupidly executed. And would show clearly that CII was made by drunken people that kept forgetting to add the most basic of things into the game.


I dont know were they drunken or were not, but I agree, they spoilded and forgot to add many things in this game.
It is clear that developers rushed their work, therefore they do many mistakes and they do not add the most basic things.
I cast many examples in that matter long time ago. Neverthless C2 game still offer many interesting ideas even in BFE Campaign.
Even with these guard and artillery glitches BFE is much better than other RTS games or stupid campaigns in C1 or C2.

Quote
There is no notification that artillery or Guard units do not work in certain areas, they just evaporate. Say, you go for a tough battle: 20 Squad vs 20 Squad + 12 Garrison, 7 of your squads are artillery, 5 are Guard units. You enter the battle, not knowing, and suddenly your're 12 Squads less, having only 8 now! What the--?? How is that fair?


Of course that could looks stupid and not fair, however you should notice that enemy also lost their guard and artillery units in the same sectors.
Then your army is weakened in the same maner than your oponents.

Quote
There is no indication, no option to replace with normal units, nothing. It just cuts you off more than half of your army. You cannot repeat the battle and change the composition, you'll just have to lose. Your only choice is to never use them at all, because you'll never know when it strikes. And even if you go and try to mark all places where it happens, it's just better to level a normal unit to "Guard" status which will surely be more powerful than a freshly added already Guard one. Why have them in the game, then?
Guards and artillery units evaporate only in few sectors. If I remember well that were Poznan, Krakow, Toulouse or so.
Then it looks that these glitches are predicted events which existed in specific sectors. In other sectors guard and artillery units do not evaporate, then you could use them in the battles.

Quote
And how are arty and Guard units OP? Despite arty having an accuracy slightly too refined, but well it leans to compensate for its lack in numbers, how it was usually mannered. They are slow (there is no limber in BFE-mode, so freaking stupid), hard to position, dumb, canister round is bullshit, and only serves to get your (funnily small) crew killed, over and over again.


Artillery in the game was spoiled in few manners, but guns are still very poweful units. Even player use only few guns they can easly inflict many casualties in enemy squads. Well used guns are deadly, very accurate, can make fear and panic. There are many sectors where even few artillery guns can play God of war role. Even few artilllery guns in the game could be absolute killer.

Artillery of course is slow, hard to position, dumb, canister shot is not so good represented etc.
Neverthless artillery in C2 is much better implemented than it was in C1.

However for my needs I've made some changes in artillery statistics e.g. weakened their fire power, lowered accuracy, ligth cannons round shot get much longer range and artillery depots can create more guns in skirmish games.

Quote
And Guard units only have a faint advantage in HP and attack which barely does any difference. I'm not speaking when your units gain Guard-experience, for in that time they definitely become a force to be reckoned. They do nothing, they offer little, only that this faint advantage may come in handy, because faint or not it is still more, but not OP. Unless there are some hidden stats that makes Guard units OP which I'm not aware of, but I have yet to see them taking such a role.


Guard units offer the best morale, they are very well trained, can fight hard. Player could employ few guard units and in late stage of the game they clearly can over power his army.


Message edited by Nowy - Saturday, 18/October/2014, 8:29 PM
 
domCossackDate: Monday, 20/October/2014, 8:39 PM | Message # 10
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Yes, but if CII is the best or the worst RTS; if it has creative or silly campaigns is not what is at stake. Whether there are worse or better doesn't mean that the bad in CII goes away, and it doesn't make it any less bad just by thinking that there is worse.

By the way, the enemy does NOT lose their Elite Guard and artillery units. I have played with artillery in Poznan by snatching them from my enemy. Their Elite Guard units are there and very veteran by experience, with usually 5k kills minimum. This would imply they were not supposed to disappear in the first place. Defending this is believing the devs would make a stupidity like this which, as fair as I've figured, has little to no justification.

The artillery is only "deadly" because it's way too accurate, but as I said, that's only because you have few [in numbers]. Even if you had less accuracy but had the opportunity to use a lot more arty that would still be devastating, but it is suppose to. At least to be game-changing, but not game-breaking. Put less accuracy with the current number of arty the game allows and you better off using another squad of infantry or cav, instead of bothering with dumb cannons. I still do think that more in numbers but with less accuracy makes them less reliable and leaning more towards game-changing instead of utterly breaking it.
And yes it is better represented than it is in CI; so I wished that was anything to be valued as a gratifying improvement. I have difficulty seeing it as such.

Oh ya, I forgot the morale part. It's only slightly higher too, it's not that huge of a gap. As for the rest: those are not stats, that's their description. A normal unit raised to Guard status, or even just veteran or elite is still better than a fresh Elite Guard [red card]. And is not like you can get them experience and then decide to go to a sector where you "can't" use them and say: "I will not take them here, will use them later", because if you do that their veterancy will reset, e-v-e-r-y  t-i-m-e. Even if what you say is true [and they are overkilling machines] they didn't just prevent them from overpowering the game, they prevented them from being used at all.

Just to make my opinion out straight: CII is not one of the worst  out there only because there are not many out there [RTS - of this time-period]. By the year CII came out they had the obligation to do a much better job. CI was the first, it was an experiment, and it sort of worked for its time, that's why I don't bash it much. When a game makes a sequel you want to see more than just a little graphical overhaul and a few changes here and there while you break everything else that worked and/or could have worked, see: C&C Generals 2. In the year of 2005/2006, with the success and experience they've gained through CI, releasing CII at that state is a much more disgusting feat, to be honest. They should have kept patching and DLC'ing the game until much later just to clear the shame, see: Total War: Rome 2.

My apologies for digressing, again...
 
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