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Forum » Cossacks II » Map & Scenario Editing » Question to map makers (About geographical and tactical conditions)
Question to map makers
NowyDate: Thursday, 22/April/2010, 6:55 PM | Message # 1
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I saw many maps to C2 and many times had questions about geographical and tactical conditions there.

A special when I played C2 Battle for Europe Campaign, which I liked, I saw that many sectors and tactical maps had not good geographical conditions and tactical placements. Global Europe Map was fine, nevertheless it had many mistakes in sectors border lines, main capitals and few other things. Worse that tactical sector maps had not really geographical conditions. Mean I did not saw there proper placements for rivers, mountains, lakes, sea, main towns and other characteristic places on real maps. I know it is only a game, but is it really matter made maps which will include main or most characteristic places.

My skills are not enough to make a good maps, but I know what I wnat to see there. Correct geographical conditions for sectors maps in BfE Campaign where many maps did not include them. Proper placement for rivers, mountains, main towns and other characteristic places were needed there.
I know it is a hard and longtime work but maybe someone which have good skills and like make maps could include these suggestions.
More detailed informations about this matter I can try prepare soon as it will possible or someone will need it.

And interesting to know is anybody here which can and like make maps to C2 BfE and could include these mentioned above conditions?

 
[hwk]poppenDate: Thursday, 22/April/2010, 8:56 PM | Message # 2
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well. as far as historically accurate. Gsc came close. what i can tell you is. if its small things ( towns, mountains. etc) these are easy fixes that can be done with very little skill. other things. like rivers. are a bit trickier. they were trying to represent an entire nation at a scale of like. 10000 times smaller then the nation itself. you can also download cossacks 2 maps in the download section here. http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/load/c_ii_maps/31 which may be more to your liking.

Sorry this really isnt helping you. lol. but im not a map maker. but its as much as im able to give. hopefully someone will pick up where i left off sad






Non progredi est regredi
 
DaddioDate: Friday, 23/April/2010, 2:39 AM | Message # 3
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From my experience it is better to start from scratch. Just like Pop. says, buildings, roads, villages can be modified fairly easily. But terrain and water, rivers are much more difficult, if not impossible.

Best to lay out your map ether in your head, or even a drawing and just start experimenting.

It's kind of fun after you get the hang of it.

Some great tools can be found here. http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/index/editor_interface/0-219

Daddio


http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
 
NowyDate: Friday, 23/April/2010, 11:46 AM | Message # 4
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Thank you for yours answers, however it is not helping me so much.

I know that on this web site we can find many interesting maps, useful infomations and great tools for modding.
But as I said my skills are not enough to make a good maps. Experimenting with map making needs time. And my primary question was: is anybody here which can and like make maps to C2 BfE and could include these mentioned above conditions?

From my point of view good map making needs some professional ability and if someone start experimnting with map making it is very well, but it is not answer to this question.

Main problem is not how make maps to C2, which can include correct geofraphical and tactical conditions, but is it really possible and who can do it quite well.

Daddio I know that you made some maps and have quite fine experience there, but can you include this mentioned by me conditions in next your maps products?

 
DaddioDate: Saturday, 24/April/2010, 0:15 AM | Message # 5
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Could you be more specif, what map do you want to make.

I have experience in making skirmish maps, but not maps for single player / mission maps.

If you want a battle map, then possibly I could put something together for you if you supplied me with a layout, and troop placement etc.

Daddio


http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
 
NowyDate: Saturday, 24/April/2010, 10:33 AM | Message # 6
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Hm, I have got on my mind maps for sectors in Battle for Europ Campaign or skirmish maps for single and multi player.

My suggestion in that matter was: can somebody include more correct geographical and tactical conditions for these maps?

I try all maps in original C2 and saw some maps showed on this web site, and any maps there have not real geographical conditions. Even it were called as Manchester, Silesia or Crossing the Rine.

Have you ever seen big rivers near Manchester, mountains in North Silesia and that Oder river run direction in reality? Even your maps, which can be fine for skirmish, have the same problems.

I do not want to depreciate these maps, it could be fine, however I'm looking for more realistic terrain there. Mean, I need more realistic terrain and maps conditions. Right directions from Norh, South, East, West, proper placement for rivers, mountains, deserts, big forest and main town on maps. It is not easy make maps under realistic conditions, but even little look in geographical atlases or real maps can help sometime.

In other words I could say, who likes and needs glaciers or mountains at Florida, deserts in New York, big rivers in Denver and any big river in New Orlean.
Better include there more realistic terrain conditions it will be more interesting, even it will not have all characteristic places in Europe.

I still do not understand why map makers can not include more realistic terrain conditions for maps in C2 BfE?

Majority sectors maps in that campaign have not correct geographical conditions. Many skirmish maps also have not realistic terrain sometime, and this is why there is too little places for open battles. Mountains and all water (steams, rivers, lakes, sea) also are not realistic many times. Maps include too many narrow places , too wide stone bridges, any wooden bidges, worse that these bridges are not destroyable.

I dont want to be rude and I like C2, but I need in this game many more realistic things. What a pity that I can not do it myself. Maybe somebody can.

Regards
Nowy

 
DaddioDate: Sunday, 25/April/2010, 10:50 PM | Message # 7
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Well I say again, If you could let me know what kind of map you would like, I may be able to come up with something.

But you will have to do the research as to where and what type of terrian you would like to see?

I can make the map with in the limitations of CII map editor of course.

But you must come up with a layout.

Daddio


http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
 
NowyDate: Wednesday, 07/July/2010, 11:55 AM | Message # 8
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Hello Daddio

Thanks that you offer your help.

As I said I would like to see maps for sectors in Battle for Europ Campaign or skirmish maps for single and multi player.

It is a lot of work because so many maps were neede there. Nevetheless these maps can be use for two players skirmish games too.

Maybe we can start discuse skirmish maps for Silesia or Saxony here. These sectors do not exist in that campaign, but it were interesting places where some important Napoleonic campaigns and battles were fougth at 1806/7 and 1813 e.g. Jena, Auerstedt, Bautzen, Lutzen, Dresden, Kaczawa (Katzbach), Leipzig. Some siges were also - Wroclaw (Breslau), Glogow (Glogau), Swidnica (Schwednitz), Kozle (Kosel) etc.

If we look at real geographical maps there are mountains, plain, big rivers, some forests many fortresses or fortifications and even main towns.

I know there are limitations of CII map editor of course. Nevetheless it could be interesting.

Added (07/June/2010, 3:37 PM)
---------------------------------------------
I asked mapmakers there, can they make Silesian or Saxony map for C2 game. This time I add some information about Province of Silesia which could be Silesian sector or skirmish map for C2 BFE.

Province of Silesia

Silesia is historical region located mostly in Poland with parts in Czech and Germany. During Napoleonic Wars it was mainly province of the Kingdom of Prussia. This territory has been conquered from Habsburg Austrian Empire during Silesian Wars in 18 century. There were many sieges and battles in 1806-7 and 1813-14 too. Silesia was resource-rich and populous region important for economy, there were many mines, workshops, stone pits, forests and farms. Therefore there were many fortified towns, fortresses and strongholds.

Most of Silesia is relatively flat, but southern border is mountainous. It is located along both banks of the upper and middle Oder (Odra) river. The region include many tributaries of the Oder including Bóbr, Kaczawa, Nysa Łużycka, Nysa Kłodzka and other rivers and streams which can make some troubles during heavy rainy days.

Silesia was populous region and there were located many villages and towns.

On North were located Grunberg (Zielona Góra) and Glogau (Głogów). This last town and fortress was easy captured in 1806, but was long siege in 1813-14. There were many weaver shops and many forests at that region.

Lower Silesia were also known as food production area and there upon Oder river was located province capital Breslau (Wrocław). It was big town, manufacture, commercial and administrative center which was siege in 1806-7. Upon Oder also were located small towns as like Oppeln (Opole) and Brieg (Brzeg). This last one had even stronghold which was easy captured in 1807. Upon small Katzbach (Kaczawa) river was located old town Leignitz (Legnica). Near that place in August 1813 were accidental big engagement occurred during heavy thunderstorm at the Katzbach river which resulted in French defeat and heavy losses.

On southern border were located many towns, villages and strongholds as like Schweidnitz (Swidnica), Silberberg (Srebrna Góra), Glaz (Kłodzko), Neisse (Nysa) and Kosel (Koźle) which were siege during Napoleonic Wars. Kosel was siege even several month, but was not captured in 1807. Interesting to know that Prussian heavy cannons took from captured Schweidnitz were then used during siege of Danzig (Gdańsk) at 1807. In this region were many weavers shops, stone pits, sawmills and even gold and silver mines.

In Upper Silesia, on South East were many towns and villages e.g. Gleiwitz (Gliwice), Konigshutte (Chorzów), Tarnowitz (Tarnowskie Góry), Beuthen (Bytom), Kattowitz (Katowice). This region was resource-rich, there were many coal, lead, iron, silver mines, and many iron, silver and lead-works. It was important workshops area.

Main roads were lead from North-West to South-East, from Grunberg cross Glogau, Breslau, Berg, Oppeln to Beuthen. This was road from Prussian Berlin to Polish Krakow. Other important roads it were West to East road from Saxony capital Dresden cross Legnitz to Breslau and then to Krakow. Next one road lead on South from Breslau cross Glatz to Austrian Wien. Next one on North from Breslau to Polish Capital Warsaw. Other roads were from Glogau on North to Polish Posen (Poznan) and from Breslau cross Neisse (Nysa) to Opava and Cieszyn in Austrian part of Silesia. In Silesia also were many other roads, because there were located many small towns and villages a specially on southern and western border.

Oder was big river and was crossable at Breslau, Oppeln and Glogau, but I do not know well what bridges were there at that period. Oder had many tributaries which made sometime some problems. On South border was Sudety Mountains.

Here you are some maps where you can find Silesia.

http://www.upper-silesia.com/jpgs/oldmap.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Schlesien_1905.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....zig.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Poland

Hope that it help skilled men which can make this Silesian map for C2.

Added (07/July/2010, 11:55 Am)
---------------------------------------------
Hmm, what a pity is that anybody is interesting in Silesian map there. Maybe map makers can take into account Saxony and Thuringia map. It was interesting territory during Napoleonic Wars. Napoleon destroy Prussian Army there and few years later he lost his biggest battle and it was decisive to his collapse in Germany. Here I put some remarks about that.

Saxons sector

Thuringia, Saxony and Lusatia are locate in central and southern eastern part of present-day Germany. During Napoleonic Wars there were located many states as like Electorate, then Kingdom of Saxony and many other Anhalt, and Saxe Duchies. There also were few Prussian enclaves as like Erfurt, Halle and Cottbus. Saxony at first allied itself to Prussia, but afterwards joined Napoleon and entered the Confederation of the Rhine in December 1806 and many small duchies did it in April 1807. Then Saxons army fought in many Napoleonic campaigns as French allies, but at last they deserted to French enemy coalition forces in Autumn 1813.

On that territory were fought many famous battles e.g. Jena and Auerstadt in 1806, and Lutzen, Bautzen, Dresden, Leipzig in 1813. There were many other battles, skirmishes and sieges too. Therefore it could be interesting separate sector in C2 BFE Campaign. Neutral in the beginning, soon Saxons could allied with Prussians and then with French and can join Confederation of the Rhine. Saxony also can be interesting map for skirmish games.

These territories are lowland on northern, eastern and central parts, but mountainous on southern and western borders, where are Thuringia Forest on west south and Erzgebirge on south.

In Thuringia and Saxony run many rivers. Biggest is upper Elbe river which run from south to north west and divide that territory on two parts. Other rivers there run mainly from south to north e.g. these are Saale, Mulde, White Elster, Spree and Lauzitzer Neisse (Nysa Łużycka) rivers. These are not so big rivers, but it gave numerous water obstacles which made some problems sometime. Maneuvers in these conditions was not so easy a specially on west east direction.

These territories were populous and there were located many towns and villages e.g. Gotha, Erfurt, Weimar, Jena on west, Halle, Leipzig and Torgau in the center, Dessau, Wittenberg and Cottbus on north, Chemnitz, Dresden, Bautzen and Gorlitz on south.

There were located many fortified towns, fortresses, strongholds and many roads leads cross Thuringia and Saxons territory.

From west to east it were roads cross Gotha, Erfurt, Weimar, Leipzig, Dresden, Gorlitz and further to Prussian Province of Silesia.

From south west to north east lead few roads from Bavaria and other southern Germany states. It were: road from Bavarian Nurnberg cross Bayreuth and Hoff to Saxons capital Dresden, and road from Bavarian Nurnberg cross Bamberg and then two roads cross mountainous Thuringia Forest to Gera and Leipzig. Napoleon used these roads from Bavaria during Jena Auerstadt campaign 1806.

Leipzig was important town, mercantile center and big cross-roads where were fought biggest Napoleonic Battle of the Nation in 1813.

There were many roads. On south east from Leipzig was road to Saxon capital Dresden, and on north east road lead to Prussian capital Berlin. On that direction were located Wittenberg fortified town upon Elbe river. On north Saxons border were fought battle at Dennewitz in 1813.

On north west from Leipzig roads leads to Prussian enclaves Halle and further to fortified Magdeburg. There were battle at Halle and siege of Magdeburg in 1806.

On north east from Leipzig road lead to fortified Saxons Torgau upon Elbe river. On south west roads leads to Bavarian Bamberg, and another one road to Erfurt. On that direction was fought battles at Auerstedt in 1806 and at Lutzen in 1813.

Dresden was capital of Electorate, then Kingdom of Saxony. This town was not only administrative center, there were some production as like linen shops. There were many military actions at that period e.g. Austrian capture this town in 1809, Russian and Prussian occupied this area at spring 1813, then Napoleon recapture it and big battle was there in August 1813, and few month later here were laid siege too.

The roads leads there on south from Dresden to Pirna and Konigstein, two strongholds, and further to Bohemian Prague in Habsburg Empire. On that direction were fought few battles as like Dresden and Kulm in 1813. However this last one was in Bohemia, outside of Saxons territory.

On east from Dresden was road to Gorlitz and further to Breslau(Wroclaw) in Prussian Silesia. On that direction were battles at Bautzen in 1813.

On west from Dresden was road to Bavaria and on north west to Leipzig. On that direction were fought only skirmishes.

Saxons economy was not so big, but there were made famous Saxons porcelain. There were some recourses e.g. coal, silver, copper and salt and productions area e.g. food, wool and linen. There were some metal works too. Wood and stone were in mountainous regions.

Here you are some historical maps where you can find Thuringia and Saxony.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....812.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....803.jpg

Message edited by Nowy - Monday, 26/April/2010, 10:59 AM
 
DaddioDate: Saturday, 10/July/2010, 9:00 PM | Message # 9
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Nowy, I do not understand what you really want?

Do you want a map that looks like the entire country?

Normally a scrimmage map is meant to represent a small section of an area.

Again if you can give me an example of what you want I could try.

Mountains along the bottom, river in the middle, with a split, etc.

Daddio


http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b455/Billy_Jo_Patrick/cossacks2_art_03_zpsel8tgwad.jpg
 
NowyDate: Monday, 12/July/2010, 12:00 PM | Message # 10
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Sorry Daddio maybe I was not so clear, and put in this thread too many words, and my English is not perfect. I will try explain my wishes again. I like C2 game and I want to enjoy Battle for Europe Campaign and skirmish games too. However I do not find more interesting maps there. These existing in the game maps are enough for scrimmage, nevertheless these maps do not represent realistic areas.

Worse that in majority sectors maps do not represent even a small section of an area with their local geographical conditions or places. Sometimes it looks even ridiculously. And many important regions do not exist in BFE Campaign. That is why I put here an example, these two small regions – Silesia and Saxony which are not so big. These mentioned regions could be used as drafts for maps in C2.

Why real mountains, rivers and towns from that regions can not be put on maps? These areas are too big? Let’s make them smaller and why known towns from these regions can not be put as “villages” in scrimmage map in C2. It could be fun when player will wage campaign or skirmish in Silesia or Saxony and will capture villages called small Breslau or Dresden and will can try fight ‘mini’ battles at Jena or Auerstedt. All these things could be on one map, even in scrimmage.

I thought that maybe someone here can prepare maps for C2BFE which will take into account these conditions. I understand that it is impossible put the entire country into these maps. Nevertheless even small section of an area could/should looks like historical regions which can be in the game. Therefore I rise a question for discussion about maps for BFE.

 
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