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Forum » General Talk » General Chat » Next Cossacks game based on Napoleonic Wars.
Next Cossacks game based on Napoleonic Wars.
OssDate: Thursday, 03/March/2011, 11:42 PM | Message # 31
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That would be so great if we had the source code! Then all of our wildest dreams would come true to the game. The imperia creators had it from what I have read.
And if you ever possess this artifact please let my eyes gaze upon its glory! biggrin

Have you played HEW 2 Nowy? It is way cool.


 
CichorDate: Friday, 04/March/2011, 0:16 AM | Message # 32
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Quote (|hwk|poppen)
cichor, do you know of anyone who would happen to have a c1 source code even?

Nope.

Quote (Nowy)
Main problem of course is good source code, but even when you will find, it will be hard make everything what you would like to add.
Nevertheless I wish you good luck.

Swoiste mission impossible. ;p


I apologize for my english.



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[hwk]poppenDate: Friday, 04/March/2011, 0:49 AM | Message # 33
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well good news. i got an engine and a map editor. its from a friend of mine. its very alpha. i gotta continue making it. but its very promacing





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NowyDate: Friday, 04/March/2011, 9:24 AM | Message # 34
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Have you played HEW 2 Nowy? It is way cool.

What is HEW 2?
I little bit tried HEW with patch 4 in SP and make few remarks about that game. If you would like you can read this here
http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/forum/40-241-1
I must addmit that HEW is interesting and could be cool game but still have many small problems which can spoil the fun.
Gex made quite great job, but he can not or is ill-disposed to make more improvements which can make this game better.
ACFB engine also has some limits and graphic is outdated in this game.

C2 BfE could be better choice, and I like this game, however it is historically ill prepared.

Therefore I still seek new game or good mod where I can find more reality in games based on Napoleonic Warfare.

Quote (hwk poppen)
well good news. i got an engine and a map editor. its from a friend of mine. its very alpha. i gotta continue making it. but its very promacing

Could you tell what an engine?
Hope you will succesful in modding.

Nowy

 
[hwk]poppenDate: Friday, 04/March/2011, 1:24 PM | Message # 35
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well. so far i havent been able to open the engine. i gotta install visual studio. but. i have been able to open the map editor. its very promacing. its prone to crashes witch i can fix. but it has a mini map. its a very basic blitzkrieg 2 looking map editor





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NowyDate: Friday, 11/March/2011, 10:25 AM | Message # 36
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Hm, Blitzkrieg 2 it is game based on WW2 and developed in 2005.
There were quite cool landscape, fine undulate mountains, land textures, ruins, the seasons of the year, day and night effects.
But map editor is prone to crashes.

How do you fix it, and what about things known from C2 as like road system, morale, fatigue, stamina effects, units cards, automated villages and economy used in skirmish games. These games have many different things include units remote control and interface. What about Napoleonic units formations, tactic and all warfare which is quite different.
Which game engine will be base to your mod?
Can you solve so many problems?

Added (24/March/2011, 10:25 Am)
---------------------------------------------
Hey [hwk poppen] what's goes on with these Blitzkrieg fixes?
Have any progress there?

Nowy

Message edited by Nowy - Thursday, 24/March/2011, 12:32 PM
 
deli_huseyinDate: Thursday, 07/April/2011, 0:30 AM | Message # 37
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Quote (Nowy)
deli huseyin
it's strange that you proposed Imperial Glory which is old and poor total war clone game. Didn't you know better games as like Histwar LG or Napoleon TW?
All these games do not satisfy me

I didnt say imperial glory..I said Crown of Glory which is tactical strategy and economic management game read carefully plss wink
 
NowyDate: Thursday, 07/July/2011, 6:06 PM | Message # 38
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deli huseyin
I am sorry, I misunderstood you and thought that you suggested Crown of Glory which was typed on Imperial Glory game cover.

Now I can understand that you suggested Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon. This Matrix Games and the developer Western Civilization Software game could be interesting war-game management.

However I was looking for the game somehow similar to C2 BfE or HEW games, and that was my pervious statement. This could be turn base and real time strategy game and should include strategic and tactical levels, where maps will be more historical and geographical accurate, where topographical aspects and weather conditions could be important for game play.

This game should include more things and mainly good Napoleonic warfare with proper tactic, well chosen uniforms, units and historical commanders.
Fine game scenarios and historical campaigns and battles will be welcome too.

It was hard to find this kind of Napoleonic game, therefore I made many suggestions about needed improvements for games which can base on that eventful and impressive period.

I can prepare here some more detailed wishes to that kind of game.

Added (24/May/2011, 11:30 Am)
---------------------------------------------
As I said it before here you are my proposition for order of battle needed in the game based on Napoleonic era.

Order of battle

1. Supreme commander = 1 man
2. Generals commanders = 17 men
these include mounted generals:
- corps commanders 2
- division commanders 5
- brigade comanders 10
3. Adjutant officers = 34 men
these include mounted adjutants:
- for supreme commander 6
- for corps commanders 8
- for division commanders 10
- for brigade comanders 10
4. Infantry battalions = 24 x 100 men = 2,400 men
each battalion include c.a. 100 men, the same type of soldiers in several companies
plus 1 officer, 1 drummer or bag piper, 1 flag-bearer
infantry company could include 10, 12, 14 or 20 men
French model battalion could include up to 9 companies, each 12 men in the beginning, and after reforms only 6 companies, but each 14 men. This battalion in the game should include:
- 1 grenadier company placed on battalions right wing
- 7 later 4 fusilier or chasseur center companies
- 1 voltigeur company placed on battalions left wing and these company could form shirmishers chain in front of battalion line or column
EDIT:
French model battalion also were used in Polish, Italian and few other allied armies too. Other nations had their own organisations and if it will be possible it will be good put some different squads organisations for every nations.

These infantry battalions could include:
- reserve battalions (National Guard, Landwehr, Opolchenie etc.) 4
- light infantry battalions (Chasseur, Grenz, Janissary etc.) 3
- line batttalions (Musketeers, Fusiliers, Legionary etc.) 12
- line grenadier battalions 3
- guard light or line infantry battalion 1
- guard grenadier battalion 1
EDIT:
Austria had not form big guard unirts, Habsburgs had only elite units.
France and Russia could fom more guard squads, because Napoleon and Tsar had their famous and big Imperial Guards.
Other nations had smaller guards units or not so numerous as like French and Russian.

Optional units for Spain, Egypt and Turkey
- Spanish militia battalions = 4 x 60 men
- Spaniush Guerilla bands = 4 x 15 or 30 men
- Egyptian Touareg fighters 30 men = 3 x 30 men
- Turkey Albanian (Balkan) fighters = 3 X 30 men
5. Cavalry regiments = 12 x 60 men = 720 men plus next 400 men for Russia
Russia could have more cavalry formations, because they used many Cossacks and other irregular cavalry
Cavalry regiment include 60 men in 4 squadrons each 15 men
This regiment could include also cavalry officer, flag-bearer and trumpeter
Cossacks and irregular regiment or formation could include 50 men in 5 sotnias each 10 men
Each cavalry squadron and Cossacks sotnia or small irregular cavalry formation could operate separately, then it will be more formations on the field.
These cavalry could include:
- light cavalry regiments, each nation could create different types of squads as like
(light dragoon, chasseur, chevauleger, lancer, ulan, hussar) 6 or 8 regiments
- line or heavy cavalry regiments, each nation could create different squads as like
(dragoon, heavy dragoon, cuirassier, carabineer) 2 or 4 regiments
- elite or guard light cavalry regiment 1
- elite or guard heavy cavalry regiment 1
EDIT:
Guard or elite cavalry for France and Russia could include more squads. Their guard cavalry were numerous at that period.

Optional cavalry for France, Russia, Egypt and Ottoman Turkey
- Cossacks only for Russians 6 regiments, each 50 men in 5 sotnias including 10 men
- Irregular cavalry big formations 2 for Russians and 6 for other eastern powers, each 50 men in 5 smaller formations each 10 men
- Turkish Spahis 6 big formations each one 50 men, this include 5 smaller formations each one 10 men
- Egyptian light or heavy Mameluke 6 big formations each one 50 men , this include 5 smaller formations each one 10 men
- French Guard Mameluke squadron 10 or 15 men
6. Skirmishers companies = 3 x 15 men = 45
EDIT:
French could form more skirmishers companies. They were known with flooding skirmishers tactic at that period.
However French skirmishers (Voltigeurs) used common infantry muskets, while less numerus British Riflemen used rifle carbines.
Russian also had numerous jagers regiments, however their tactic was not so good as French was.
7. War engineers companies 3 x 15 men = 45
EDIT:
These companies should have ability to built wooden or pontoon bridges and more fileldworks.
8. Artillery bateries (companies) from one depot = 12 guns x 4 crew = 48 men
Artillery battery could include 2 or 4 guns, 2 or 4 limbers, 2 or 4 ammunition wagons and 1 foot or mounted officer
plus eventually 1 foot drumer or mounted trumpeter
Artillery should include:
- foot batteries 4 pounder light cannons, each 2 guns
- horse batteries 6 pounder light cannons, each 2 guns
- foot batteries 6 pounder common cannons, rach 2 or 4 guns
- foot batteries 8 or 9 pounders cannons, each 2 guns these coulod be optional for France and Britain
- foot batteries 12 pounder heavy cannons, each 2 guns
- light howitzer attached to light batteries 1 gun
- heavy howitzer attached to heavy batteries 1gun
- unicorns optional guns for Russians instead howitzers 2 guns
- rockets optional for only Britain
- guns limbers 2 wheel carriages each with 4 horses and 4 guns crew = 12X 4 men = 48 men
EDIT:
Artillerymen and wagon drivers could be armed with infantry muskets or short sabres, then they can sometime defend themselfs against small troops or individual men.
9. Horse train wagons = 40 men
these include:
- ammunition (caissons) 4 wheel wagons each with 4 horses and 2 drivers = 12 wagons x 2 men = 24 men
- supply wagons 2 or 4 wheel wagons with 2 or 4 horses and 2 drivers = 6 wagons x 2 men = 12 men
- pontoon bridges 4 wheel carriages each with 4 horses and 2 drivers = 2 carriages x 2 men = 4 men
Pontoon or wooden bridges could be bulit by sappers companies
10. Civilians, peasants, townsmen, noblemen, priests and policemen = 1,650
- policemen or gendarme formations each 14 men in two ranks

TOTAL population: 5,000 men
per one player in skirmish game where can play up to 4 players.

I have not finished propositon for Navy organisation yet, but this game should include many ships and naval battles too.
Here some needed ships short list:
• Large ship-of-the-line, flagship with 100 guns on three decks
• Common ship-of-the-line standard battleship with 74 guns on two decks
• Frigate as scout, cruiser and patrol ship with good speed, carry 36 or 44 guns on one deck
• Sloop of the war small warship escort type with 16 guns
• Merchants and transport ships for trade and transport

These ships can sailing and fighting only on special maps were will be only naval battles. Open sea and sometime little bit costal banks in few places or small islands will can be there. Any land troops, only ships will combat here. If developers will can implement these ships in the game this way it will have next attractions.

Nowy

EDIT:
I made few corrections and notes, but it did not change main idea for this battle of order. Nevertheless I got few ideas which could be implemented too.

Added (07/July/2011, 6:06 PM)
---------------------------------------------
I wonder about bigger amounts of units which can be used in the game because Napoleonic period was characterised with vast, complex armies and it should be more visible in the game.

If it is possible to rise units numbers and makes better organized formations, then proposed order of battle could include:
* more general commanders and their adjutants
* more diverse units formations scaled in historical ratios
* much more artillery guns and artillery batteries
* more cavalry units, including some differences
* more infantry and proper skirmishers
* more engineers units types
* more train wagons and carriages

Specially more artillery pieces, including more guns types, many various wagons and carriages with well chosen ratios to other troops, should be in the game. However there is a question how many artillery guns and horse train wagons could be effectively implemented into the game? Can they operate as organized batteries and attached train companies?

Now in games as like C2 and ACFB in skirmish games we can create only few individual artillery guns and we can not create any horse train wagons.

What a pity that we can use there so small amount of guns, and any wagons on the field. During Napoleonic Wars were used lots of guns, horse train wagons and carriages and it was quite characteristic for that warfare. These elements should be improved in new game.


Message edited by Nowy - Thursday, 07/July/2011, 6:32 PM
 
CichorDate: Saturday, 09/July/2011, 1:29 AM | Message # 39
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Quote (Nowy)
What a pity that we can use there so small amount of guns, and any wagons on the field. During Napoleonic Wars were used lots of guns, horse train wagons and carriages and it was quite characteristic for that warfare. These elements should be improved in new game.


Remember power of artillery in C1! Power of 100 or more cannons was terrfying.


I apologize for my english.



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NowyDate: Friday, 20/January/2012, 10:46 AM | Message # 40
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Added (10/July/2011, 11:35 Am)
---------------------------------------------

Power of artillery is not main problem there. It easy could be solved with artillery accuracy which could be decreased. Then hit on target will be hard.
It will be more realistic, because artillery guns were not so accurate at that period. During Napoleonic Wars were used hundreds cannons per one side and it fired many times. Sometimes these guns inflicted not so many hits on targets, because artillery guns were accurate in short distance while in long distanse was very inaccurate.

Main problems with artillery guns in the game lay in game engine efficiency, proper units ratios and size of maps.

There are questions how many guns could operate effectively on battelfield, how implement artillery formations and what proper ratios could be used there.

Maps still are not so big and there is so hard place many units. Neverthless I think that 30-60 artillery guns per one side could be fine.
But they must be organized in artillery batteries and should be supported with many ammunition wagons.

It will be good include siege atrillery as like heavy 24 pounder cannons and few mortars too.

Engineers also should be better represented in the game and there could be few types of this units as like:
- engineers officers, which could allow to build or destroy fortifications, they had knowledge in siege techniques
- sapperes, they reconnoitre terrain, stake out camps, cast up fieldworks
- pontoniers, could build wooden or pontoon bridges which were used at that period
- miners, needed during sieges
- pioneers, could clean obstacles, repair and wider roads, throw wooden trestle bridges accros streams

There could be also chiefs of artillery and engineers in rank of General.

More General commanders and their adjutants better represent complex army structure.

Added (20/September/2011, 11:35 Am)
---------------------------------------------
Recently I saw on youtube few movies with Scourge of War - Gettysburg game developed by NorbSoftDev.
However this game was based on American Civil War and I am not so familiar with this game as well as that war, but I found here few fine ideas.

There are implemented artillery bateries wich consisted of few cannons, limbers and ammunition wagons. There are other supply wagons too.
They can quite interesting operate on battlefiels as organised formations.

There are Generals in accompany with Adjutants (?) with little bit stange pennons, but they can represent quite well commanding staff.

Infantry regiments or battalions formations include smaller companies with NCOs (?) which stay behind.
When battalion change type of formation from column to line, then their smaller companies squads visualise how they do it in regular order.
Infantry columns are longer than wider also on battlefields which looks realistic.
There also are strugglers which were common problem even in Napoleonic era too.

This game of course have many strange things as like flying big flags, vanishing treas, strange fences, not so good units movment animations etc.

Nevertheless Norb Timpko implemented many fine things which could be take into consideration.
These could be worthty to include into Cossacks style games.

Added (23/September/2011, 6:47 PM)
---------------------------------------------
I found that SoW game was used for Napoleonic Wars and gunship24 make Napoleonic mod which looks interesting.

Here you can see some great screenshots.
http://www.norbsoftdev.net/index.p....mid=103

There are:

+ quite well showed infantry companies formed in battalions battle column formations, however soldiers stay in two instead three line ranks
+ mounted generals or officers in accompany with adjutants
+ very beautiful renders of artillery
+ good artillery formation, where cannons on battlefield are placed together with limbers, drivers ride on horseback, few artillerymen with limbers
+ historically accurate prepared units, however some details still needs few improvments
+ not many casualties inflicted with one volley
+ dead bodies lie on battelfield
+ quite well visualised terrain, however there are not so many details

All these things will be wellcome in Cossacks style games.

Mentioned SOW Napoleonic mod have some not good looking detalis:

- too big flags flying above formations, it are beautiful detailed, but it sometime even shut out the view of troops or terrain
- too many flags which are plased above formation as well as above adjutants commanding this formation, this way there are too many flags in sight of view and it looks unrealistic
- little bit strange colors used for dragoons horses, theirs sadle covers and French uniforms
- imperceptible infantry bayonets
- only two ranks line formations

I also can not see few needed units and details:
- no drummers
- no flag bearers
- no foot officers commanding infantry battalions
- no green (spring, summer) or brown (summer, autumn) grass

These things, units, flags and other details are better showed even in old C2 game. Nevertheless SoW Napoleonic mod have many interesting things which could be implemented to Cossacks style games.

Added (20/January/2012, 10:46 AM)
---------------------------------------------
Hmm, I’m little bit disappointed in SOWG game.
It have many glitches and limitations and it looks that there are more bad things than good things. Many important and characteristic features have some problems e.g. cavalry actions, infantry square and battle column formations, small variety and differentiation in units types, there no sappers, war engineers and historical fortifications, no economy and other aspects characteristic for real time strategy games. Graphics and animations also have some glitches.
Generally it’s only battle simulator which have some problems.

I'm afraid that these things do not help implement this engine for Napoleonic warfare.

Napoleonic mod Road to Wagram created on this engine by gunship24 still is in development, but with these mentioned above and other limitations it still will have many problems.

Therefore I think that somebody should develop new rts Napoleonic game in style similar to C2 or HEW.
Such game can easy find many customers, but it should not repeat mistakes which were made in pervious Cossacks games or which were made in Napoleon Total War game development.


Message edited by Nowy - Friday, 20/January/2012, 10:53 AM
 
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