To be able to play in the C1 style of game you will need to change so many things to do with moral, AI, roads, etc. will it still be possible to retain any the normal C2 style games in this new C1 format?
For me the changing from building your own mines, to the villages concept was a breakthrough in simplicity, and realism. I would hate to see a move back to the old C1, and ACFB era.
Exactly, and this is why I prefer "classic" C2 options in the game. Therefore I said before: less options is better. Think that these classic C2 options plus Kill the General + more units + sea battles will be enough. There are much more important things which should be improved in C2 than start options.
Therefore I add some more words about my suggestions about improvements in C2.
2. New basic squads strength, more complex tactical order and applicable units groups for brigades, divisions, army corpses and general commanders present on battlefields.
In Cossacks II game one player on battlefield use in practice 2,500 to 3,000 soldiers. Worse still in Battle for Europe Campaign exist not big units limit, and both these things are not enough to play nice battles there, because much more men and units squads took part in typical battle during Napoleonic Wars.
Many players want more units squads, more cannons, generals, and commander-in-chiefs present on battlefields, and more complex order of battle, and army organisation in the game. Base tactical formations at that period were infantry battalions and cavalry squadrons, but army organisation included also groups of these basic units which also formed regiments, brigades, divisions, corpses and these could be visible in the game.
The game have their limitation, but maybe it is possible to reduce some less important things e.g. make smaller or less detailed buildings, put less fauna and flora elements, neutral buildings, citizens and peasants. Maybe implement more effective economy which will needs lessen villages and lessen peasantry. Maybe include in skirmish mode peasants and population limits too. Less men in basic infantry formation will be also necessary.
Basic infantry units squads should have lessen men, and these new units should create units groups in more complex order. Then we can use more units squads in the game and these new squads, operate in groups, could create more interesting orders of battle and this way gives more fun for players. Therefore I suggest implement new units squads strength in the game.
Basic tactical formations in the game should include:
* infantry battalion 80 soldiers and 1 officer, 1 drummer and 1 flag-bearer
* cavalry regiment from 2 to 4 cavalry squadrons, 1 officer, 1 trumpeter, and 1 flag-bearer
* cavalry squadron 15 cavalrymen acting in two men rows
* specialized troops foot company (skirmishers, sappers, pioneers etc.) 15 men
Include also few specific squads as like:
* Egyptian Touareg - theirs squad still could have 30 men.
* Cossacks sotnia - new unit could include 10 men, and Cossacks regiment which should unite (adjoin) 5 sotnias units under command of 1 officer and 1 flag-bearer. Cossacks were excellent in small warfare but they were not so good in open battle and in one to one combats. They often used so many units and usually try fought with their number superiority and also with support from other troop units. Russia had and used so many Cossacks sotnias and Cossacks regiments and it should be visible in this game. These Cossacks regimetns shoulod be cheep, but do not like combat in open battle. They prefered small warfare with their outnumber tactic. Were exellent in reconesance, laid an ambush and surprisly harassed enemy.
* Spanish guerrilla squads should have another name, it is militia provincial battalions which could include 60 or less men, because guerillas it was partisan bands, non combat units which had fewer men poor armed and prefered suprise attaks on enemy supply and communications lines.
* All guard skirmisher units (jaegers etc.) could include 30 men as skirmishers light infantry guard battalions.
Below I can try explain why this new numbers figurines in squads strength will be better than these which are existing in the game now.
Basic infantry formations should have 80 instead 120 men
Infantry battalion was base tactical formations which included 400 to 1200 men at that period. It gives average 800 men per basic unit and if we include scale 1:10, then 80 figurines can represent basic infantry unit, one battalion in the game. This new, smaller squads strength takes opportunity for faster form men into lines, faster can exist more infantry squads and then new generals can organise more complex order for units groups for brigades, divisions and army corpses. This way will less men waiting useless near military buildings or fleeing from destroyed squads units. These new infantry formations will can include less crowded men and these squads will have better look in the game. In pervious Cossacks series games and even in American Conquest series games infantry formations which included 72 men were quite fine and have better look than this too much crowded 120 men squads from Cossacks II game.
Two types of basic units for cavalry formations
Historically cavalry squadron was base tactical unit which included between 75 - 250 men at that period. It gave average c.a. 160 men. But in many cases for cavalry actions one squadron was too small unit and therefore few squadrons created cavalry regiment unit, which has stronger hit power. Cavalry, a special light cavalry, was used in many actions e.g. reconnaissance, watch over the safety, screen and cover an advance of the army, pursuit enemy, escort and support for own troop units and even to shock or broke enemy on the battlefield. Therefore army needed so many different cavalry units, and in the game also should exist more than one basic cavalry units’ squad types. I suggest implement there cavalry squadron unit with 15 men, and cavalry regiment unit, which could unite (adjoin) a few (2, 3 or 4) cavalry squadrons. Then this cavalry regiment will have maximum 60 men instead 45 men which exist in the game now. New small cavalry squadrons units will faster come in actions, but will have not enough power for open battles, therefore players will connect them into regiments units which will have bigger strength and stronger hit power. It will needs resources and time of course, and cavalry regiments will go in actions later. This way cavalry in the game will be more interesting.
Artillery should create batteries.
Artillery guns could operated independent, but historical they were grouped in batteries too. Sometimes it were very big batteries numbered so many guns, nevertheless base artillery tactical unit at that period was artillery company (battery) which include 4 to 12 guns and many guns carriages (limbers) and ammunition four wheel wagons. It is hard to implement this organization in the game, but artillery should have possibilities for creating more complex order, it is mean units group as like companies (batteries) in the game. And I think 2 or 4 cannons pulled by teams of horses attached to limbers and optional 1 or 2 ammunition four wheel wagon operating all together in one group could represent artillery battery unit in the game. It will be nice when guns will operate in batteries. And army needs lot of them, because artillery had very poor accuracy at that period. Therefore grow up artillery limit to minimum 12 guns from one artillery depot and give them possibilities to organize artillery batteries too.
More complex tactical order and mounted general commanders on battlefields.
Armies in Napoleonic Era had complex tactical order and their organisation had few levels. Basic formations - infantry battalions and cavalry squadrons were grouped in regiments, brigades, divisions, army corpses and field armies under command of field generals, marshals and theirs staffs. It should be implemented in the game and could exist like this:
• Regiment it is group of 2 infantry battalions. For cavalry regiment it can be group from 2 to 4 cavalry squadrons operate together, but with visible small intervals between their basic squadron units. Regiment can operate without any generals as their commanders.
• Brigade it is group from 2 to 4 infantry battalions or 2 cavalry regiments under command 1 mounted Brigade General. These groups should operate all together, but with visible intervals between every basic unit. Brigade also could grow up of morale and gives bonus power e.g. + 2 points for attack and defense.
• Division it is group of 2 brigades include from 5 to 8 infantry battalions or 4 cavalry regiments plus 2 Brigade Generals, 1 Divisional General and optional 2 theirs adjutants. Division could grow up of morale and units power + 5 points.
• Army Corps it is group of 2 divisions include from 10 to 16 infantry battalions or 8 cavalry regiments plus 4 Brigade Generals, 2 Divisional Generals and optional 4 theirs adjutants and 1 Corps commander (General or Marshal) and optional next 4 adjutants representing commanding group. Army corps could grow up of morale and power + 5 points.
Artillery and other specialized troops, skirmishers and sappers squads could be attached to every units groups. Optional every group also could use ammunition four wheel wagons, military horse train wagons, and pontoon bridges carried on wagons.
Every army had their commander-in-chief and this can be as special unit in the game. He should exist from the beginning of every game play and will present on every map. He will necessary to command army squad units. If this commander will die, then player will ask for short peace treatment which will cost gold of cause and his army can withdraw to his nearest village or town. Then player will can create new commander-in-chief and game play will can continue or player will can give up e.g. could be Kill the General option there.
All mentioned above general commanders and commander-in-chief, and theirs adjutants should operate on battlefields. These generals can give orders for theirs groups: advance or defend position with fire and melee. Generals, marshals and adjutants could be crate in Academy or Palace building. They will can create units groups for brigades, divisions and army corpses and will increase units morale. I saw few national generals figurines which exist in the game in editor mode. They should be implemented in skirmish mode and in Battle for Europe Campaign too.
If developers will have some programming problems with this so complicated battle order then maybe it will be possible implement into the game only regimental and brigade level under command of field general and one commander-in-chief. I saw that it was possible in one modification “European Warfare” for American Conquest Fight Back game. And I think it should/could be implemented in much modern and fine Cossacks II game too. If it will be not possible, then implement 'independent' generals, which will can increase soldiers morale on battlefields. Generals present on battlefields are necessary in this game. Fine generals and commanders had mentioned Gex/Awar Napoleonica European Warfare mof for ACFB.
More complex army organisation gives the chance to play more interesting games and fight more complex battles. Soldiers figurines organized in basic formation and units groups under command of generals operate on battlefield could represent quite nice mini army engaged in the game.
New units limit in Battle for Europe Campaign and skirmish mode.
New units limit should include more complex battle order and more troops units. Then army could grow up to:
• 4 reserve infantry battalions (National Guard, Landwehr etc.)
• 12 line infantry battalions (musketeers, fusiliers, Legionary etc.)
• 3 light infantry battalions (bordermen, chasseurs, janissaries etc.)
• 3 grenadiers battalions
• 1 guard light or line infantry battalion
• 1 guard grenadiers battalion
• 1 guard skirmishers company (jaegers, riflemen, voltigeurs etc.)
• 2 skirmishers companies (jaegers, riflemen, voltigeurs etc.)
• 2 war engineers, sappers or pioneers companies
• 4 light cavalry regiments (Russia should/could have next 4 to 8 Don Cossacks regiments)
• 2 line or heavy cavalry regiments
• 2 guard light or heavy cavalry regiments
• 2 horse artillery light cannons
• 4 foot artillery light canons
• 2 foot artillery heavy canons
• 2 horse artillery light howitzer
• 2 foot artillery heavy howitzer and 2 rockets for Britain
• 12 limbers with team of horses automatic attached with artillery guns
• 6 or 12 ammunition four wheel wagons pulled by teams of four horses (optional units)
• 4 or 8 military train wagons pulled by teams of two horses (optional units)
• 2 four wheel wagons, pulled by tams of four horses, pontoon bridges carriers (opt.u.)
• 20 mounted adjutants, escort or bodyguards for general commanders
• 10 Brigade Generals, mounted commanders for brigades
• 5 Divisional Generals, mounted commanders for divisions
• 2 Marshals or Generals, mounted commanders for army corpses
• 1 Commander-in-chief
Total limit will can include 40 basic units squads and it can be 24 infantry battalions, 8 cavalry regiments, 6 artillery companies (12 guns), 2 skirmishers and 2 sappers companies. In this army also could exist up to 10 generals of brigade, 5 generals of division, 2 corps commanders, and 1 commander-in-chief, and 20 adjutants. Total will be c.a. 2,700 men on battlefield in the game and these are not too much, but they will can create more squads, and more complex battle order, and it will be more interesting and better than it is now.
Few little corrections for formations should be in the game.
• Smaller strength of infantry squads (80 men) will be less crowded and should have a little bit bigger size (scale) for square and column formations. Nice size/scale had these infantry formations which included 72 men in pervious Cossacks I game.
• Infantry squad in column formation needs new animations and balance. Only first three men rows should fire with muskets there, next rows drop behind can not fire. Column will have lower fire power, but this formation should be more effective in close combat in attack with bayonets. Therefore grow up their cold steel, melee attack bonus or grow less damage hit points from musketry fire, because column can quite fast broke three rows lines formation which should soon quickly go in panic.
• Skirmishers/sharpshooters (jaegers, riflemen etc.) should use more extended tirailleur order. These soldiers should operate in pairs and automatic fire simultaneously, but not always in volley how it is now in the game.
• New cavalry formations it is one squadron (15 men) should have two rows lines formation and 3 men in 5 rows in columns on road, this formation should have not flag bearer.
• Cavalry regiment could includes 2, 3 or 4 cavalry squadrons, each 15 men, and this regiment should have visible little intervals between all their squadrons.
• Cavalry regiment can form:
- line formations, all squadrons stand one near the next one, and all squadrons should stay in 2 rows, and this should be long line, little bit more than infantry battalions line.
- column, all squadrons standing one behind the next one, it is 8 men, then 7 men, then small interval and next squadron 8 men then 7 men etc.
- wedge formation or better name echelon formation, each regimental squadron stay in 2 rows line formations, but every next squadron should stay in steps (stepwise) in left or right from the first one.
• Artillery battery can include 2 or 4 guns operate together, optional also with 1 or 2 ammunition four wheel wagon. Artillery guns should be automatic attached with theirs limbers.
Again so much text, but I think it could be interesting in the game.
Added (30/December/2009, 9:51 Am)
I see, this thread have many views but only few men gave replies there. Strange to say that nobody else have not theirs remarks and wishes to C2 BfE?
Added (09/January/2010, 5:51 Pm)
I have next few needed ideas for Napoleonic warfare in Cossacks 2. Find them when was looking Hawks battles prepared in HEW mod for ACFB which are really great, nevertheless Hawks also should ponder few things. Their battles are even better than in C2, however let’s look at casualties ratio, game play time and victory conditions there. It is still horrible and historical inaccurate when near all formations were destroyed and so many soldiers were killed so fast in these game battles.
In reality it was not happened and even after very bloody battles, which took many hours or even few days as like Eylau, Aspern-Essling, Wagram, Borodino, Leipzig so many formations and majority soldiers survived. Sometimes defeated troops withdraw and can fought later. What is more standard casualties ratio for battles at that period was between 10-30% strength of men engaged in battle, including killed, wounded, and prisoners of the war. Some battles inflicted even less than 10 % casualties.
Only during bloody battles, which were not often, casualties were higher and could include more then 50-70%. Naturally armies also had some other lost men, stragglers and deserters but they happened even without battles. Many soldiers died sometime without combat too. Disease, hunger, cold or hot weather and harsh living conditions inflicted many casualties. Nevertheless these last things are not interesting in the game like this.
Generally men did not like died even at war. In majority they wanted to win and survived, but in bad circumstances they rather retreated, surrendered or run away and only some devoted men fought to the death. Therefore generals and officers had common problem how to motivated their men to combat. They usually wanted to win this day or later and this is why sometime they ordered withdraw or maneuvered in another place where they expected better battle conditions.
Some troops could go in panic and soldiers can run away of course, but many other troops can withdraw in formations, even when battle is lost. Sometime they can rest, reorganize and try join new, fresh units and find better place for next battle.
Then who win the battle and war? This one who force enemy to retreat or surrender his troops, capture battle field or better say strategic points as like strongholds, towns centers, villages, hills, crossroads, bridges or another few important things.
This one who lost his Headquarters, had cut communication and supply lines, was encircled, flanked and faced with more powered and sometime outnumbered enemy, lost too much men or had not enough recourses as like gun powder, food, water, dwellings and men this should retreat or surrender.
Many surrenders were very famous as like Austrian did it in Mantua and at Ulm, Prussians after Jena and Auerstedt, and French at Bailen. Many withdrawals were also famous as like British at La Coruna, Austrian in Danube Campaign 1809, Russian in the beginning and then French in Russian campaign 1812.
Who lost too much land, men and strongholds, had not enough recourses and little power to combat, had not believe that he can win or did not want to prolonged war this one lose the war and ask for peace.
Total annihilation all of men was not often in reality. Normally even in bloody battles some formations and many men survive. Butchery of men and all formations destruction was only occasionally case and not common victory conditions.
How put these conditions in this game.
Implement options which will allow automatic fire and melee for all formations, but guns fire should had less accuracy and less casualties ratio
In the game should be option which will allow automatic fire and melee for all formations. It will gave a chance active or defend these units which are not under full players control. Then should/could be less casualties there too. In the game should be implement poorer accuracy for muskets and guns fire which will gave less casualties ratio.
Muskets, pistols, cannons and howitzers during battles had very poor accuracy at that period. Many balls simply missed their targets. This is why infantry fired in volleys and artillery needs sometime fire so many rounds shots to hit on target and inflict panic. But when guns balls hit right on target it sometimes make quite big casualties, however many men still can combat in formations.
Implement formations withdrawals and surrender
Exhausted formation which lost more then 30%-40% men and still is under fire or is attacked, but unit is not encircled should/could try retreat behind other ally formations and try rest. Non experienced troops go in panic faster than veterans therefore they could withdraw earlier. Guard units could combat in stand ground and can attack much longer.
Normally some men can fly away and formation should/could try retreat in order. Then formation could combat again until include more then 20-30% men in units ranks. If formation had more casualties then this could be destroyed. If formations was encircled or can not retreat then it could surrender sometimes. It could be ordinary case, mean if formation lost too much men, should try withdraw and if can not do this, formation can be destroyed or could surrender. Then these men can fly away or goes under escort to the prisoners camps.
Casualties ratios, game play time and victory conditions in Cossacks 2 should be improved or changed, because too many formations can be destroyed so fast and easy and too many men can fly away and sometimes it makes next few problems. I think that formations in the game should/could open automatic fire or go into melee but it should inflict less casualties because formations should be less destroyable, could have better stamina and should/could withdraw. These formations which inflicted too much casualties, are tired and lost some morale should/could withdraw or retreat, at first behind next ally formations, and try rest, reorganize and then could go in actions again. If squad still can not grow up their morale soon should withdraw to nearest ally village, under cover of ally fortifications or military buildings.
This way in the game will be more formations combats on the field, more squads withdrawals, less men flying from destroyed troops and then less crazy killings men waiting for death near military buildings which are very strange in the game now. What is more skirmish/battles will be more realistic at last in reality many formations can retreat sometime in quite good order. More complex battle order and formations withdrawals gave chance for longer game play. Napoleonic battles and campaigns were fast nevertheless it took more time than one hour. If somebody prefer short and quick game play then he could play under score options. But some people like long time game play where they can fight even few hours battles and wage long time campaigns.
Therefore these things are necessary in the game:
• options which will allow automatic fire and melee for all troops
• poorer accuracy for muskets and guns fire
• less casualties ratio in skirmish/battles
• more formations withdrawals, troops and units surrender
• victory conditions which will include capture and hold strategic points, casualties, economic and army power score
Think it is possible in C2 BfE and makes this game play more interesting and accurate.
I put long text again, but there are my next remarks for this game.