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Forum » Cossacks II » Modding » Questions, suggestions, remarks and wishes to C2 BfE
Questions, suggestions, remarks and wishes to C2 BfE
yikesDate: Friday, 19/March/2010, 10:38 PM | Message # 41
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I've worked on modding and indie game development before, although as an amateur 3D artist instead of a programmer. My experience with modding the Cossacks 2 engine is restricted to a mini mod I once created for HOAE. Never attempted to mod cossacks 2 itself, although I obviously recognize the game's potential. Despite of what more conservative fans may say, the C2 engine generalized what was only achieveable through modding on the C1 engine while making it generally nicer to look at. For me it is still the best platform for a simulation of Napoleonic warfare, smaller maps or not.

However what the engine could and can support was not matched mechanics and gameplay-wise. The game felt excessively manual most of the times, with the player having to issue orders for every squad to fire, something that could've been solved simply by implementing a "fire on range" option that would allow a player to trigger autofire as soon as the enemy entered a specific area of the squad's range of fire. Cavalry could also use a bit of realism for the sake of balancing. They're generally too fast and could use an acceleration/braking cooldown so it could be harder to manage and maneuver. Cannons also tend to perform poorly. I remember some pretty hilarious bugs that sometimes caused bullets to get stuck between depressions because of the ricochet physics. Ideally the cannon role should be similar to the role of the batteries on games like Blitzkrieg, allowing the bombardment of very distant positions rather than focusing on mid/close range targeting.

As for more engine related issues, I always wondered why the engine has compatibility issues with recent OS, and right was indeed hoping you could answer me that question, given that you are in possession of the code, and if such flaws would be possible to fix in a not-so-distant future.

Message edited by yikes - Friday, 19/March/2010, 10:45 PM
 
EbelAngelDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 1:10 PM | Message # 42
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Quote (yikes)
As for more engine related issues, I always wondered why the engine has compatibility issues with recent OS,

The problem is not the engine, its those versions with starforce drivers that give problems on Vista/Windows 7. Lucky I have versions without these messed up protection drivers. As I said before, I never had compability issues on any operating system.

Quote (yikes)
I've worked on modding and indie game development before, although as an amateur 3D artist instead of a programmer

Nice. Static models or animated models aswell?

Quote (yikes)
My experience with modding the Cossacks 2 engine is restricted to a mini mod I once created for HOAE.

O really, have you visited my friends Hoae site already? --> http://hoae.ucoz.net/. We help eachother out on the more difficult modding issues. He works on his Rise Of Sols mod currently. He also posesses the latest version of the engine ( Hoae engine was build on Cossacks 2 engine). This latest version was build for Hoae 2, a game that unfortunately never got released. It basically an updated version with more features and options , different 3D terrain meshes and then some more...There's already an early release out but he's working on the next version now which promesses to be really good. Some ground breaking changes are being done to the engine and the game.

Now, as for your suggestions on your initial post. I believe most are doable. They are very similar to the 'battle' type of maps we have now (no peasants, capture zones,...)
Its not hard to implement a new game mode, I'v already done so, added a random map mode besides the already existing battle & skirmish map mode.
As for rewarding players with units/formations based on zones captured, well there is something very similar already present in game. It's a reward system based on experience, though it lacks an interface. It's carried over from Alexander and would require some tweaking to change the experience gained by killing to a system of experience (or points as you say) by capturing zones.This would have to be done in the engine... but for the rest...all very doable.


 
yikesDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:07 PM | Message # 43
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Quote (EbelAngel)
The problem is not the engine, its those versions with starforce drivers that give problems on Vista/Windows 7. Lucky I have versions without these messed up protection drivers. As I said before, I never had compability issues on any operating system.

Perhaps then you should release the necessary files to create a small patch. I don't believe that to be an illegal procedure.

Quote (EbelAngel)
Nice. Static models or animated models aswell?

Did some characters but never tried animation

Quote (EbelAngel)
O really, have you visited my friends Hoae site already?

Lost my interest in HOAE. It's a conceptually poor game.

Quote (EbelAngel)
Its not hard to implement a new game mode, I'v already done so, added a random map mode besides the already existing battle & skirmish map mode.
As for rewarding players with units/formations based on zones captured, well there is something very similar already present in game. It's a reward system based on experience, though it lacks an interface. It's carried over from Alexander and would require some tweaking to change the experience gained by killing to a system of experience (or points as you say) by capturing zones.This would have to be done in the engine... but for the rest...all very doable

Alternatively one could simply use a resource, such as gold and simply rename it. The player wouldn't be "rewarded" but free to spend the points on whichever units he wanted. I've elaborated a very rough map schematic so it will be more explicit.

This simple capture and conquer method keeps the battle raging throughout the game without focusing too much on economic management, leaving the players free to concentrate on pure warfare and field tactics.

And if you allow me another question, considering you have access to the engine source, wouldn't it then be possible to increase the max limitations of map size?

 
EbelAngelDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:16 PM | Message # 44
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Perhaps then you should release the necessary files to create a small patch. I don't believe that to be an illegal procedure.

I will only release stuff with my mod for which I have permission from both gsc & cdv. I will not start releasing fixes for every single problem a player might or might not encounter. I cannot provide support for anything other then my own mod. Not that I dont want to, it's just I already got enough on my hands as it is now.

Quote (yikes)
Alternatively one could simply use a resource, such as gold and simply rename it.

True

Quote (yikes)
wouldn't it then be possible to increase the max limitations of map size?

Ofcourse, but it's not just a simple matter of increasing the size which is set to 16512 now and yank it up to lets say 33024 and done. It also involves AI pathfinding issues and probably other things I haven't thought about.


 
yikesDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:27 PM | Message # 45
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I will only release stuff with my mod for which I have permission from both gsc & cdv. I will not start releasing fixes for every single problem a player might or might not encounter. I cannot provide support for anything other then my own mod. Not that I dont want to, it's just I already got enough on my hands as it is now.

Silly as this question may be, how do I discern a starforce version from a version without it? As far as I noticed the 3 CD edition o C2 and BFE contains Starforce. Are the DVD versions (if there are any) starforce free?

Quote (EbelAngel)
Ofcourse, but it's not just a simple matter of increasing the size which is set to 16512 now and yank it up to lets say 33024 and done. It also involves AI pathfinding issues and probably other things I haven't thought about.

Understood. Still good to know it's possible.

 
EbelAngelDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:30 PM | Message # 46
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Silly as this question may be, how do I discern a starforce version from a version without it? As far as I noticed the 3 CD edition o C2 and BFE contains Starforce. Are the DVD versions (if there are any) starforce free?

It depends on the publisher. I have both a cd & dvd version of NW for example which comes directly from cdv AG Germany and neither has starforce on it. The cdv Usa version on the other hand does have it. So do the gold editions I believe. And there are more publishers ( white label,...)

I do not know all the specs on the different publishers and whether they used starforce or not.


 
yikesDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:42 PM | Message # 47
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Alright then, I'll see if can find a working version. If not I'll just have to wait until cdv & GSC finally turn their backs on you ;). Even so, where can I find some documentation regarding the planned features and fixes for your so-called mod?
 
EbelAngelDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:48 PM | Message # 48
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If not I'll just have to wait until cdv & GSC finally turn their backs on you ;).

Lol

Quote (yikes)
Even so, where can I find some documentation regarding the planned features and fixes for your so-called mod?

On my pc bunny

Nah, seriously now, I don't publish stuff that is subect to change for 2 reasons: its a waste of time for me and I dont want to dissapoint people when things do change.

But if you really want to know you can always add me to your msn.


 
yikesDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 3:56 PM | Message # 49
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Fair enough.
 
NowyDate: Saturday, 20/March/2010, 4:43 PM | Message # 50
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Vikes and EbelAngel you both start discuss about few modding questions there, and this thread is about Cossacks.com domain. whistling

It is quite interesting questions, but maybe put these posts in another thread about suggestions to modding C2. I think it will be more visible for users.

And now, my two cents to this discussion.

Quote ("vikes")
Ideally the parameters that would adequate to Cossacks 2 would be something like this:

Buildings
- No peasant units.
- No player-built buildings. All buildings are present on the map and captured.
- Only buildables would be minor battlefield tactical obstacles, like stakes, trenches and so on, all of these handled by sapper teams.

Map
- Map splitted in control zones.
- Each control zone captured earns a certain amount of points to the player
- Player can spend these points on troop squads/formations, that are automatically deployed.
- The objective is to capture all zones or eliminate the enemy player's command center

Gameplay & mechanics (essentially the current C2 mechanics)
- Real time
- Formation based
- Capture & conquer warfare oriented
- No resources other thant the already mentioned "requisition" points.


It is fine suggestions and essentially similar to these existing in battles and Battles for Europe Campaign mode in the game now. I like BfE Campaign and think that skirmish/battles mode could have as option similar "parameters" too.

Quote ("vikes")
Like I said before, the only solution would be a community made-remake using original game assets. Although such pratice could be legally questionable I don't think CDV or GSC would minimally care about it since it was their choice to abandon C2 so prematurely. So I would like to make a public appeal to all talented programmers and artists who have hacked most of the file formats to gather together and begin planning a remake, if we still wish to salvage something out of C2.

Yes it will be good. Therefore I started on this site my thread Questions, suggestions, remarks and wishes to C2 BfE too --> http://cossacksworld.ucoz.co.uk/forum/29-83-1

Quote ("vikes")
The game felt excessively manual most of the times, with the player having to issue orders for every squad to fire, something that could've been solved simply by implementing a "fire on range" option that would allow a player to trigger autofire as soon as the enemy entered a specific area of the squad's range of fire. Cavalry could also use a bit of realism for the sake of balancing. They're generally too fast and could use an acceleration/braking cooldown so it could be harder to manage and maneuver. Cannons also tend to perform poorly. I remember some pretty hilarious bugs that sometimes caused bullets to get stuck between depressions because of the ricochet physics. Ideally the cannon role should be similar to the role of the batteries on games like Blitzkrieg, allowing the bombardment of very distant positions rather than focusing on mid/close range targeting.
Yes and not. Yes for "fire on range" option and I suggsted the same thing too. However cavarly question is more complicated and it should/could be improved in another way. Cavalry units were not so hard to manage and maneuver for skilled commanders, however cavalry had many problems like terrain, weather, morale, units strength and few other conditions. I also gave some suggestions in these metter too.
Cannons during Napoleonic period can not "be similar to the role of the batteries on games like Blitzkrieg", because fire or bombardment on very long distant was waste of cannonballs and guns powder at that period. Napoleonic guns had lower effectice fire range and were focusing on mid/close targeting. However cannons still had better than muskets fire range.
Quote ("vikes")
This simple capture and conquer method keeps the battle raging throughout the game without focusing too much on economic management, leaving the players free to concentrate on pure warfare and field tactics.

This is interesting idea. This game should be more concentrate on pure and accurate warfare, field tactics and well-chosen units, and uniforms.
 
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