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Forum » Cossacks II » Modding » Questions, suggestions, remarks and wishes to C2 BfE
Questions, suggestions, remarks and wishes to C2 BfE
NowyDate: Monday, 22/March/2010, 10:48 PM | Message # 61
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Quote ("EbelAngel")
I would not bend to any demands indeed, but I am susceptible to good & motivated arguments.

Sorry for not replying to every single suggestion made here, but do know that I appreciate them and think about them.

Well it nice that you appreciate our ideas and can take into account good motivated arguments. I hope it will useful in your work under mod.

It is clear that playability should take center stage, but historical accuracy is also important.

Basic things must be properly prepare there, because C2 is historical based game.

Silly mistakes in Napoleonic warfare, wrong chosen units and their uniforms also can spoil the fun and then any playability can not help.

Of course historical accuracy should not kill playability. Make good decisions is not easy there. Good research and many tests are necessary.

Therefore I start ask questions, make some suggestions and remarks about C2 BFE modding.

 
yikesDate: Monday, 22/March/2010, 11:04 PM | Message # 62
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You can't be picky regarding uniforms considering some of the vanilla units are already not completely faithful to reality. Cossacks 2 sprites are hard to edit due to the amount of frames, and creating new unit models requires 3d modelling and animating skills that are not available to everyone. The napoleonic era is so contrived in therms of military vestuary it's almost impossible to reach a consensus on which particular uniform models should be used as standards. So unless you're whilling to mod some stuff by yourself, I advise you to be patient or instead use your imagination.

Message edited by yikes - Tuesday, 23/March/2010, 12:39 PM
 
NowyDate: Thursday, 13/May/2010, 5:34 PM | Message # 63
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Yikes I think that I can be picky regarding uniforms, because Napoleonic period was beautiful uniforms era where right colors, cuts, fascings, headwears and few other things were important for units recognition. There exist so many uniforms which changed many times, but in majority these uniforms had national standards. I put some remarks in this matter in my thread about questions, suggestions ... mentioned in modding section.

Generally uniforms should be correct prepared in the historical based game and it is nothing to do that C2 vanilla is not perfect in this matter.
I can understand that it is so hard fix all this things now, but some improvements can be implement there e.g. correct uniforms and their fascings colors.
Even small steps in right direction there create small success and repeated small successes create larger success.

So sad, I can not modding, nevetheless I can discuse about modding.
I also can use my imaginations quite well, but sometimes silly mistakes in C2, regarding not only uniformology, can spoil the fun. Therefore I put my suggestions and remarks there, maybe it can help somebody in work under C2 mods.

Added (07/May/2010, 1:21 PM)
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Hm, someone add there some posts from another tread and it is not bad, but worse that this interesting discussion standstill.

I am back here because I had some little remarks to improvements in C2 BfE. Therefore I will edit few old posts mentioned in this tread and add next few remarks in these places where I have had put some points earlier. Generally it concerns units uniforms, formations, maps, gameplay and another needed improvments for C2 BfE. It will not change this disscusion so much and my edits will only as some kind of supplement.

Added (13/May/2010, 5:34 PM)
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As I said, I made some EDITs in my early posts, but I have again next questions to C2 BfE.

Diplomatic Center and foregin service units.

It is interested to know why we can not create mercenary of foreign service units in this game. These troops were used in Napoelonic Wars. Many Legionary and other foreign regiments were created and achaived many interesting things. They were used in many actions. Part of these units were famous and quite good soldiers as like King German Legion, Polish Legionares and Swiss regiments. Part were only auxiliary troops as like Hanoverians, Portuguese, Piedmontese and Italian Legions and part were only temporary units as like German Legion in Russian service created after 1812 campaign. Neverthless these troops existed and should be implement in C2.

What is more in C1 series games players can create mercenary units in Diplomatic Center, why we can not do it in C2 series games? Why we have not some kind of Diplomatic Center there.

Cossacks and irregular units

Why we can not create more Cossacks units in the game which has been called Cossacks? Russia had so many Cossacks units which were not only Don and Black Sea Cossacks. They had also many other units at that period as like:
* Bugski Cossacks
* Ural Cossacks
* Siberian Cossacks
* Ukrainian Cossacks
* many irregular and other nation units e.g. Kalmuk, Bashkirian, Kirgizian, Georgian

I know it is hard implement all of these units, but few more units we should have in the game.

Is it impossible to take Cossacks or even Tatars models from another games e.g. vanilla AC, HEW mod ACFB, 17th c HH mod C1. There exist many Cossacks units.

Many Cossacks units were in reality and should be cheep units in C 2 BfE game, because Russia had so many Cossacks regiments.

Wooden and pontoon bridges

These bridges were very importand during Napoleonic Wars and it should be implemented in the game. It could be as national objects and it should be destroyable. Players know that stone bridges existing in the game now are not destroyable and that is bad, because it should be destroyable. Maybe all bridges should be build on rivers fords and should be capturable and destroyable as national buildings. This way we will have not these stupid situations when artillery shoot on bridges many times and never broke or spoil any bridge in the game. Stone bridges should be hard destroyable, but it should be destroyable with artillery fire and sappers barrels.

Wood and pontoon bridges were build many times during Napoleonic Wars. Sappers or pontoniers have built many bridges sometimes and then army and specially artillery guns and many wagoons can cross rivers.

Message edited by Nowy - Thursday, 13/May/2010, 5:36 PM
 
EbelAngelDate: Thursday, 13/May/2010, 6:21 PM | Message # 64
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Quote (Nowy)
I made some EDITs in my early posts, but I have again next questions to C2 BfE.

I will read trough it one off these nights to see what you have changed, with a glass off wine next to me, because I bet it will take me at least an hour to read this 7 page thread ;-)

Quote (Nowy)
It is interested to know why we can not create mercenary of foreign service units in this game

Quote (Nowy)
What is more in C1 series games players can create mercenary units in Diplomatic Center, why we can not do it in C2 series games? Why we have not some kind of Diplomatic Center there.

It's not hard to turn units in to mercenaries. The strings used in C1 for this are present in the C2 engine aswell. It is that simple that one only need to "clone" a unit and add one line of text. Piece of cake. I will consider this.

Quote (Nowy)
I know it is hard implement all of these units, but few more units we should have in the game.
Is it impossible to take Cossacks or even Tatars models from another games e.g. vanilla AC, HEW mod ACFB, 17th c HH mod C1. There exist many Cossacks units.

Implementing isn't really that hard. It is not impossible to take units from other games. I have already done so for testing purposes. But there are 2 problems:
- Permission to use the models. From many of the "mods" it seems virtually impossible to contact the creators. The only one I know is Gex.
- National colour. Technical modding issue but after extracting the national colour becomes blue and up to today I have not found a solution to overcome this.

Quote (Nowy)
Wooden and pontoon bridges

Soon I will fire up my 3D Max and start exporting small objects for the editor like this. Static buildings I can handle, because i have done so before years ago. Animated units however I have never done and don't know if I have time to learn that aswell. Can't be a jack of all trades you know.


 
NowyDate: Thursday, 13/May/2010, 10:27 PM | Message # 65
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Quote ("EbelAngel")
I will read trough it one off these nights to see what you have changed, with a glass off wine next to me, because I bet it will take me at least an hour to read this 7 page thread ;-)

Hm, yes you will need some wine. I also have been drunk a little bit wine, when I have been read again this quite interesting discusion. smile

Quote ("EbelAngel")
It's not hard to turn units in to mercenaries. The strings used in C1 for this are present in the C2 engine aswell. It is that simple that one only need to "clone" a unit and add one line of text. Piece of cake. I will consider this.

It nice. However you must remember that not all nations can use the same mercenaries, how it was in C1. Better case we have got in DC mercenary units in 17th c HH mod, where are some differences in mercenary units for every nations. During Napoleonic Wars also were differences in foreign service units e.g. French used units from their small allies or vassals states - German, Italian, Polish, Swiss, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Dannes. British had their Scots, Irishmen imployed in British Army and Germans in KGL, and ally Portuguese units. Austria, Prussia and Russia mainly had not use mercenary units, however so many minorities serviced in their armies and some other nations in temporary troops units too.

Spanish had some foreign regiments in their service - Swiss, Irish, Neapolitans, but it were nominaly Spanish Amy units. Egyptian used Albanians, Greeks and few other Eastern nations. Poland was partitioned between Austria, Prussia and Russia in 18th century and many Poles must sericed in their armies, but it were not foreign service troops. Then Napoleon created Duchy of Warsaw in 1807 and it was French vassal. Later Poles create few nominal Lithuanian and one small Tartar units in 1812, but it were included into Polish or French army.

Quote ("EbelAngel")
Implementing isn't really that hard. It is not impossible to take units from other games. I have already done so for testing purposes. But there are 2 problems:

Very well. If you can get some permissions to use models it will be fine.
It is not clar for me what dose it mean problems with national colors? Could you little bit explain?

Regarding wooden and pontoon bridges, maybe it could be static objects build by sappers without animated things. Simply Sappers start built someting like some kind of fortifications and soon we have these bridges. This way in HEW mod sappers can build some static fortifications - fleches. Maybe in your C2 mod sappers will can built bridges. It will be wellcome.

If I remember well wooden and pontoon bridges Gex try use in his mod. It was also static models for Hawks battle maps , but I do not remember, can these bridges use in skirmish gameplay. Maybe he or someone else can help.

 
EbelAngelDate: Thursday, 13/May/2010, 10:34 PM | Message # 66
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Quote (Nowy)
It is not clar for me what dose it mean problems with national colors? Could you little bit explain?

Well in order to convert units & buildings from Cossacks 1 for example, you need to first extract the .gp files and when you do that, the national colours on the units becomes blue. When you pack them up to Cossacks 2 format the national colour on these units stays blue. And because off this, in game if you are playing with the colour "red" for example as player, all the units have the blue national colour. I like blue, but it's not as it should be.

It's the only thing that has stopped me so far from using Cossacks 1 units & buildings in Cossacks 2.

Theoretically one should set the national colour in gigapack (to create Cossacks 2 graphics) to ' blue" as national colour in the options to "fix" this, but quite frankly, I have tried many times and everytime it just stays blue. Probably me doing something wrong.

It's probably something very silly but as long as I don't do it right, it just stays wrong wink

There


 
NowyDate: Wednesday, 19/May/2010, 12:01 PM | Message # 67
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This game was named Cossacks, but Cossacks in this game were showed in marginal way. I pointed earlier that Russia used so many Cossacks and they had so many Hosts. What is more Cossacks used specific tactic, which I mention too.

I find ineresting opinnion about that matter.
“If one wants to capture them, they escape;
if one wants some rest, one is not able to drive them away;
if one forms a close formation, it is being surrounded;
if one extends its own line to the same length of theirs,
they concentrate before one realises it, and break through;
if one throws them back a hundred times, they still will return ..."

It was not so easy to destroy them, because they used that tactic. Many times they aviod combat and can escape. But soon they can back again.
More often they were employed to reconnaissance as well screening, scouting and patroling duty.

Could Cossacks use that tactic in C2?
I know it is not easy make specific animations only for one kind of units, but maybe someone can make something for Cossacks in C2. Maybe they will can use their specific tactical formation - lava formation, how it was in history.

If someone is interesting in that matter, can look here:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/cossacks.htm#_and_their_tactics

 
EbelAngelDate: Wednesday, 19/May/2010, 3:05 PM | Message # 68
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Quote (Nowy)
This game was named Cossacks, but Cossacks in this game were showed in marginal way

Yes, you are right there, I think they wanted to capitalize on the name fame for sales. Or maybe they really wanted to make COssacks II, but it turned out to be a different game about Napoleonic wars They probably thought , oh well, the english, french,... its all the same, let's name the game Napoleonic Wars and put an english campaign in it. Go figure why sales are bad then. They did fix a few things with this on BFE, still.

Quote (Nowy)
If someone is interesting in that matter, can look here:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/cossacks.htm#_and_their_tactics

Interesting , I'll read the link later tonight.

And on a side note:

Quote (EbelAngel)
It's the only thing that has stopped me so far from using Cossacks 1 units & buildings in Cossacks 2.

Theoretically one should set the national colour in gigapack (to create Cossacks 2 graphics) to ' blue" as national colour in the options to "fix" this, but quite frankly, I have tried many times and everytime it just stays blue. Probably me doing something wrong.

It's probably something very silly but as long as I don't do it right, it just stays wrong

Problem has been solved and it means I can properly use vanilla AC/C1 stuff now. Only the nicer units/buildings though.

E.A.


 
NowyDate: Saturday, 29/May/2010, 6:11 PM | Message # 69
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Quote ("EbelAngel")
Problem has been solved and it means I can properly use vanilla AC/C1 stuff now. Only the nicer units/buildings though.

Very well. You can try use some units, but buildings in AC/C1 have quite different style. It could make some visual mixed effects, because buildings graphic in C2 have more details and it looks better sometime. I have got mixed feelings in that matter. Convert some AC/C1 units into C2 it could be fine.

But interesting to know how you will handel some things there e.g. color for units uniforms. In AC/C1 some units uniforms have the same color like faction/nation color. During Napoleonic Wars uniforms colors did not changed this way, because every nation had their standarised colors for their units.

Quote ("EbelAngel")
I think they wanted to capitalize on the name fame for sales. Or maybe they really wanted to make COssacks II, but it turned out to be a different game about Napoleonic wars They probably thought , oh well, the english, french,... its all the same, let's name the game Napoleonic Wars and put an english campaign in it. Go figure why sales are bad then. They did fix a few things with this on BFE, still.

Yes, they did not known well what they really wanted to do.
Maybe Cossacks were not so important during Napoleonic Wars, but they did something at that period and GSC could take it into account.

Worse that developers spoiled all historical background in historical battles and in English, Polish, Spanish and French campaigns in C2. That is why these battles and campaigns quickly bore. Much better prepared was Battle for Europe Campaign and even skirmish game play. However here also were many stupid things. Nevertheless there were put few interesting things and many different maps.

Historical battles and campaigns in the game needs too much work now, therefore GSC or modders should made better research and make some improvements in BfE Campaign and skirmish. This way this game soon can be more interesting.

Added (29/May/2010, 6:11 PM)
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Hm, strange things are there. It looks like this thread is most viewed on this forum. Who would have thought it?
When I started wrote here, about half a year ago, I was afraid that my questions, suggestions, remarks and wishes to C2 BFE could bore.
I have written many long posts and not many users have participated in discussion. Nevertheless it still have so many views.
Maybe this thread is more interesting than I thought.

Some people have pointed there many interesting suggestions and remarks. It can help in work upon moddifications and C2 BFE needs many improvments. It is fine that modders try make something there, but I think that professional team could/should make bigger things. I can help in conceptional work. Think of a good plan and make some ideas, but real work upon programming problems should solve professional men or developers.

Therefore I can add next remarks about few things which could/should be improved in the game which I and many Cossacks fans like to play.

Skirmishing.

Jagers, riflemen, voltigeur/chasseurs (15 men units) in the game should use another tactic. They should acted in more extended order, because skirmish chain line was their basic tactical formation at that period. It should looks like thirailleur line where soldiers acted 2s in pairs. In Napoleonic era the intervals between pairs were 5 or 6 paces, but in French army it was even 15 paces. Tirailleurs acted in twos and only one fired at a time so that one was always loaded. This way skirmishers can prolonged fire and even covered when enemy try shoot on them.

"The skirmishers used terrain, trees and buildings as a cover. Their primary targets were enemys officers trumpeters, drummers, gunners and skirmishers."
Skirmish formation were usually supported by columns and artillery. Skirmishers would advance and the first fire to draw enemy to attack. This tactic was succesfuly used by French and later also by their enemies.

However in C2 skirmishers acted little bit strange. They even fired volleys too often. Normally it was only ocasionally case. Worse that they have very strange fire zones in the game. They should have similar to standard infantry fire zones, but should have better accuracy for long distance fire.

Fire zones

All these colorful fire zones - green, yellow, red for infantry and cavalry, and red for artillery guns can spoil visual effects on battlefield.
In C1, AC and HEW we have not them and it should/could not exist in C2 too. Only invisible accuracy zones should exist there. Nevertheless artilley guns could have zones for long, middle and long distance fire too.

Artillery units

I pointed these question earlier, but I want to point it again. Artillery units in C2 should acted in artillery units mean artillery battery.
Battery was standard artillery organization at that period and it could include 2 to 4 guns with limbers and 2 ammunition four wheel wagons in the game.

Artillery should have worse accuracy, but better, mean longer fire range, and more guns should acted in organized units in C2. This way battles/skirmish could be more epic there. Many infantry and cavalry units in the game will bombarded with many guns, but hit on target with artillery guns was not easy. Therefore artillery fired again and again with so many guns, how it was many times at that period. Artillery needs a lot of ammunition and that is why they needs these four weel wagons on battlefield too. It was dangerous and sometime these wagons made some problems. It could be interesting case when this wagons can explode, will capture by enemy or simply come late.

Pontoon and wooden bridges

I pointed about these things too. Nevertheless these pontoon and wooden bridges are interesting case and it were used many times during Napoleonic Wars.
There were many troubles with them, which I showed earlier and can show next few examples: French destroyed with artillery fire Austrian pontoon bridge at Ratisbon 1809 and near Landshut Austrian bridge loaded on many wagons hamper Austrian retreat and made some troubles too.

I still do not understand, why we can not use these bridges in C2.
In C1 exist drafts, in AC we have even boats, but in C2 we have not all these things needed for river crossing. Only not destroyable and too wide stone bridges which were not built in every places in Europe.

Message edited by Nowy - Saturday, 29/May/2010, 6:25 PM
 
CichorDate: Tuesday, 01/June/2010, 12:33 PM | Message # 70
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Quote (Nowy)
But interesting to know how you will handel some things there e.g. color for units uniforms. In AC/C1 some units uniforms have the same color like faction/nation color. During Napoleonic Wars uniforms colors did not changed this way, because every nation had their standarised colors for their units.

Try Imperia Mod to C1, and you will find answer (run editor and try for example Russians "green" infrantry in diffrent colours ;]).

Quote (Nowy)
I still do not understand, why we can not use these bridges in C2.
In C1 exist drafts, in AC we have even boats, but in C2 we have not all these things needed for river crossing. Only not destroyable and too wide stone bridges which were not built in every places in Europe.

In my opinion? Because for many people Napoleonics Wars are only wars on land because many great battles were on land (including last battle of that period). C2 was created in this way. Next reason: I spend several hours on C2, but I never noticed that maps had much of water (without coastal maps). Rivers in C2 are to ... small(?) to biuld dockyard and producing drafts. I'm afraid engine of game is not intendent for building bridges (like in Sudden Strike series).


I apologize for my english.



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